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09 Apr 13
Or maybe you don't understand them either and are just bluffing. Thats my guess.
Yes, I know you are very good at very long posts full of gobbledygook, but thats all it is. Not once in that very long post did you even attempt to answer my questions.
lol. Sure got your attention. Read the rest of the post.
We need more boasting. Tell us how nobody can explain to you anything.
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09 Apr 13
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Originally posted by sonshipYet oddly enough you don't understand it either.
I adaquately understand the meaning of the human soul and John 3:16.
I told you that for God to give eternal life in John 3:16 was for God to give Himself to man. That is to join Himself to the one who believes into Christ.
The Apostle John concludes his epistle of First John with ead. I guess you'll just have to go away and not understand, for now.
The Apostle John concludes his epistle of First John with these profound words -
"And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us an understanding that we might know Him who is true; and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life." (1 John 5:20)
What is eternal life ? Eternal life is the true God and His Son Jesus Christ. And eternal life is a realm a sphere that God must bring the believer into.
" ... and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ"
To give eternal life is to give God in Christ to man.
HUUUHHH ????
Does "explain to me" mean "force me to believe"?
John 3:16 is a promise of God giving Himself to man as eternal life to anyone who believes in the Only begotten Son of God Jesus.
The matter is not "Who agrees?"
The matter is "Who understands?" It is not hard to understand.
It may be a bear for some to believe or to like what they hear or to agree.
But to understand, it cannot be that difficult.
09 Apr 13
Originally posted by sonshipYou haven't even tried to explain it to me, and thats a fact. But don't worry, I am used to your belief in your infallibility and never expected you to admit that you simply did not know.Or maybe you don't understand them either and are just bluffing. Thats my guess.
Yes, I know you are very good at very long posts full of gobbledygook, but thats all it is. Not once in that very long post did you even attempt to answer my questions.
lol. Sure got your attention. Read the rest of the post.
We need more boasting. Tell us how nobody can explain to you anything.
09 Apr 13
1 edit
Originally posted by twhiteheadI agree that the idea of an afterlife is inherently flawed. IMO, there's nothing on the other side of death that we can't have now. What I think Christ is referring to by "eternal life" is not something we, as finite creatures, can ever be said to possess; "eternal life" is God's life. However, insofar as God is imminent in nature, it is possible for human beings to share God's life. With regard to this, "perishing" might refer to the possibility of dying without experiencing what it means to know and be known by God. What Christ has done is establish, definitively, the way one ought to live if "eternal life" (i.e., the sharing of God's life and the enjoyment of God's love) is one's goal. The desire to live forever is really the desire to be like God and that simply isn't possible. The good news of the Gospel is, essentially, that God condescends to us, as finite creatures, and loves us as we are: finite. If we do live forever, it is in the sense that the book of our lives remains perpetually open to the omniscient mind of God.
And I am trying to determine what that 'afterlife' consists of. Its all a very nice idea to live forever, but its not logical. So I want to understand whether this 'afterlife' business is actually living forever (ie it can be made logical in some way) or whether it is something else just posing as living forever. So far it seems that most theists just haven't got a clue.
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10 Apr 13
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You haven't even tried to explain it to me, and thats a fact. But don't worry, I am used to your belief in your infallibility and never expected you to admit that you simply did not know.
Oh yes I have.
No, infallibility is not what I am trying to get you to see.
Your agreement was not even what I was after.
I was simply after explaining something of God giving Himself to us who believe in the Only Begotten Son of God. That should not be too hard to understand.
Explanation is not persuasion.
I think there is no real reason for you to say you do not understand that passage to a significant degree.
You understand it enough to argue against it as an Atheist.
10 Apr 13
Originally posted by sonshipExcept its not what I asked. You simply wanted to give as much waffle as you could to hide the fact that you couldn't answer the questions I actually asked.
I was simply after explaining something of God giving Himself to us who believe in the Only Begotten Son of God. That should not be too hard to understand.
10 Apr 13
Originally posted by epiphinehasNow you may be making some sense. Do you think that is what sonship is on about with all his waffle?
I agree that the idea of an afterlife is inherently flawed. IMO, there's nothing on the other side of death that we can't have now. What I think Christ is referring to by "eternal life" is not something we, as finite creatures, can ever be said to possess; "eternal life" is God's life. However, insofar as God is imminent in nature, it is possible ...[text shortened]... at the book of our lives remains perpetually open to the omniscient mind of God.
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10 Apr 13
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Except its not what I asked. You simply wanted to give as much waffle as you could to hide the fact that you couldn't answer the questions I actually asked.
There are no facts to "hide". There is nothing to hide.
I offered the discussion supporting evidence as to what eternal life given by God means.
It is your job as an militant atheist to posture yourself like every Christian is waffling, ignorant and cannot answer you.
Big deal. That's your mission.
I explained to you the giving of eternal life.
I explained to you God giving Himself to the believers.
I explained to you God producing more sons of God in so doing.
Your stradegy is to goad on and wear out explainers of the Gospel with a disquised rationale that really means "You have not yet forced me to believe the Bible."
We see you.
10 Apr 13
Originally posted by sonshipMaybe I am mistaken. I do not think myself infallibile as you do. But your powers of explanation are not nearly as good as you apparently think.
Big deal. That's your mission.
I explained to you the giving of eternal life.
I explained to you God giving Himself to the believers.
I explained to you God producing more sons of God in so doing.
So are you saying that when I die, there is nothing after that for me, and that the 'eternal life' in 3:16 is actually something else? It think that if you want to make a switch that big you need to be clear about it from the beginning or I will loose track. epiphinehas took the trouble to point out my misconceptions from the start.
When does God give you this 'eternal life'? Before you die? After you die?
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10 Apr 13
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Maybe I am mistaken. I do not think myself infallibile as you do.
You can put that false accusation aside. Never said I was infallible and do not believe so.
The Bible I believe is infallible. My interpretations of the Bible are not infallible.
So you can discard that false accusation.
But your powers of explanation are not nearly as good as you apparently think.
So are you saying that when I die, there is nothing after that for me, and that the 'eternal life' in 3:16 is actually something else?
I said God giving Himself, dispensing Himself into the believers in the only begotten Son of God is for them to receive eternal life.
I said from God's standpoint it is Him obtaining more sons of God like the only begotten Son. This is why He is also called the Firstborn among many brothers.
Your immaterial part does not cease to be upon physical death.
God's desire is not that you go into death in order to know God.
God's plan is the resurrection of the body.
So "afterlife" is not a term I use.
And I said nothing as some other poster said about going to Heaven.
God's plan is that a man be fully "clothed" - spirit, soul, and body.
He wants no "unclothed" souls before Him in Heaven.
Christ's salvation is exceedingly practical - enveloping the human spirit, the human soul, the human body and the whole human environment.
Within these few words you got your answer. You got more than you asked for.
Don't turn around and say I didn't or couldn't explain something.
When I come to something that I know I cannot fully explain I have no problem admitting that.
God desires to dispense His life and nature into man. It is the gaining of an uncreated divine and eternal life which mingles with our natural created life.
It think that if you want to make a switch that big you need to be clear about it from the beginning or I will loose track. epiphinehas took the trouble to point out my misconceptions from the start.
When does God give you this 'eternal life'? Before you die? After you die?
The apostle John wrote to the Christians that they HAD the life, they had the eternal life in their believing sojourn on earth in this age. So the receiving of eternal life commences when one receives the Spirit of Jesus Christ.
"He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life.
I have written these things to you that you may know that you have eternal life, to you who believe into the name of the Son of God." (1 John 5:12,13)
I hope your flattery of epi or of me sometimes is not just preparation for future attack. O well.
Notice - " ... that you may know that you HAVE eternal life ..." in this age, today, before you die. The believer begins in this age to possess eternal life.
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10 Apr 13
Originally posted by epiphinehasBut why should we care about such an "afterlife"? To be known by God is hardly a comfort to the person who has experienced an agonising death.
I agree that the idea of an afterlife is inherently flawed. IMO, there's nothing on the other side of death that we can't have now. What I think Christ is referring to by "eternal life" is not something we, as finite creatures, can ever be said to possess; "eternal life" is God's life. However, insofar as God is imminent in nature, it is possible ...[text shortened]... at the book of our lives remains perpetually open to the omniscient mind of God.
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10 Apr 13
It is important to understand that just living forever is not the what God really wants.
God has millions of angels who live forever.
Humans who merely live forever may seem wonderful to humans.
But the real meaning of "eternal life" in John's Gospel is for man to be made one with God in union.
When Adam was created he seemed to have been made with an everlasting life. But he had not yet eaten of "the tree of life" .
Neither was He coerced to do so. The tree of life is said to have been there in the midst of the garden. It seems that it is there for Adam's taking if he chooses.
There was no other reason I can see for him dying besides eating of a forbidden fruit - "the tree of the knowledge of good and evil." On the day he eats of this fruit he will die.
So I conclude that apart from eating of that forbidden source God would have maintained him to live on.
So a human living forever is only our concept of ideal happiness probably.
What God really wanted was a man united with Himself in a mingling of the divine and the human.
And angel will live forever. But an angel does not have what is offered to man. And that is to have God Himself living in him.
Think eternal life as God dispensing Himself into man that God and man may be in oneness - an organic incorporation.
Think Jesus - the Godman - the Man thoroughly mingled with God.
11 Apr 13
Originally posted by sonshipYou just act so. I conclusively proved that you were wrong on several points in another thread and you completely refused to admit it going to the most ridiculous lengths to avoid doing so.
You can put that false accusation aside. Never said I was infallible and do not believe so.
Within these few words you got your answer. You got more than you asked for.
So you say, but it is not in words I actually understand.
Don't turn around and say I didn't or couldn't explain something.
You didn't explain it in words I understand. You are using words that only you know the definitions for. You are using words in nonstandard ways then expecting me to know what way you are using them.
Why can't you simply answer the questions I ask rather than going off on tangents and trying to get a few sermons in sideways?
I still don't know whether you believe in life after death or what you believe such a life consists of. I don't know what your answers are to my questions regarding a soul. In fact, I am not convinced that you have even attempted to answer them. Did you see those questions?
11 Apr 13
Originally posted by epiphinehasThis may be making more sense to twhitehead, but I'm struggling to understand what your post, and especially this piece, actually means?
If we do live forever, it is in the sense that the book of our lives remains perpetually open to the omniscient mind of God.
11 Apr 13
Originally posted by twhiteheadDid you understand the English words I used in my explanation at the end of page one? You never commented on it. I try to use simple English most of the time, because I am a simple man. Did it help with your understanding at all?
You just act so. I conclusively proved that you were wrong on several points in another thread and you completely refused to admit it going to the most ridiculous lengths to avoid doing so.
[b]Within these few words you got your answer. You got more than you asked for.
So you say, but it is not in words I actually understand.
Don't turn arou ...[text shortened]... m not convinced that you have even attempted to answer them. Did you see those questions?