08 Mar 06
Originally posted by FreakyKBHThe funny thing about your 'perfect environments' is how short they last. I'd think an almighty, all-knowing creator could, and would, do better.
[b]God didn't create the perfect environment. A perfect environment would have no 'forbidden fruit', and allow no possibility of error or death.
You equate a perfect environment with one where there is no freedom. A perfect environment was provided, wherein a free will agent could make a decision. Perfect environment is not the solution.
He has g ...[text shortened]... decreed.
This (life) is for the benefit of the creature, not the Creator. We need God.[/b]
Do you believe the 'saved' humans in heaven have free will?
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08 Mar 06
Originally posted by BigDoggProblemOk, so God should take joy in Jesus, and not the worthless humans that could not measure up to the 'standard'
Ok, so God should take joy in Jesus, and not the worthless humans that could not measure up to the 'standard'.
The 'painted smile on the face' was a metaphor for phony joy. Sure, a person without free will could be programmed to experience joy, but what value would it have? The human hasn't done a thing to deserve it. The bible claims the new heave ...[text shortened]... ld have no 'forbidden fruit', and allow no possibility of error or death.
That is not what I said. God does take joy in those humans, who through Jesus Christ, are able to measure up to his standard.
The 'painted smile on the face' was a metaphor for phony joy. Sure, a person without free will could be programmed to experience joy, but what value would it have?
That is assuming there is no free-will in Heaven. There might well be free-will in Heaven, but just not to the same capacity we had on earth. It might even be that we have a greater capacity for free-will. Who knows?
The human hasn't done a thing to deserve it. The bible claims the new heaven and earth is far more than an 'added benefit'; it is the place where the saved allegedly spend the vast majority of their existence.
I think I might be missing your point here...
The 'dilemma' I'm referring to is this: [b]Why didn't God start by creating the new heavens and the new earth, with new body humans that would not sin, suffer, or go to hell?. I'm not trying to address the 'christian' dilemma of what to do about our imperfections.[/b]
God knows. I don't know for sure. I can speculate though...
I think it is because God did not want robots. Me thinks he does does not have robots in Heaven either.
You don't need to 'overcome' Satan if he was never created in the first place. Surely, God could have forseen that he would cause trouble, and just skipped creating him.
Satan was not a robot. Me thinks, God did not want to create robots.
For a God that's not willing for people to perish, he sure does a lousy job of actually stopping it from happening. Worse yet, the bible claims that he is the one who 'casts body and soul into hell'.
I disagree. The death of Jesus Christ was not a lousy job. It was a perfect salvation. It is man himself that chooses to go to Hell by rejecting the salvation of Jesus Christ.
God didn't create the perfect environment. A perfect environment would have no 'forbidden fruit', and allow no possibility of error or death.
But then again there would be no way to see if his creation would love Him and obey His commands.
08 Mar 06
Originally posted by BigDoggProblemThe first perfect environment lasted an indeterminate amount of time. It may have been a few days, or it may have been a few million years. The text tells us nothing of its duration.
The funny thing about your 'perfect environments' is how short they last. I'd think an almighty, all-knowing creator could, and would, do better.
Do you believe the 'saved' humans in heaven have free will?
The next perfect environment will last for 1000 years. Following that, the Judgment, and then the final perfect environment: new heaven and new earth. It is erroneous conjecture to assume that we are living now is God's second best plan, and that somehow, once it's all done, God will reveal Himself in such a way as to render all arguments void. Kind of an 'a-ha' moment is not forthcoming, as He has revealed Himself to man in various modes, including pre-incarnate, visible manifestations, incarnate, Scripture, and in creation itself.
Upon His return, there will not be a break from reality, as much as a return to reality, when all our thoughts and intents and actions are publically viewed and then judged.
Humans will always be free will agents.
08 Mar 06
1 edit
Originally posted by dj2beckerI thought you believed there was no human free will in heaven! Now, it seems you are waffling.
Ok, so God should take joy in Jesus, and not the worthless humans that could not measure up to the 'standard'
That is not what I said. God does take joy in those humans, who through Jesus Christ, are able to measure up to his standard.
The 'painted smile on the face' was a metaphor for phony joy. Sure, a person without free will could be pr d be no way to see if his creation would love Him and obey His commands.
08 Mar 06
Originally posted by BigDoggProblemAs now, humans will be able to not sin. Unlike now, there will no longer be a sin nature. While the Bible does not reveal whether or not rebellion occurs in eternity future, there is no indication that it is not possible.
Will they be able to 'fall' from heaven, as Lucifer did?
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08 Mar 06
Originally posted by BigDoggProblemMy exact words were: "Free-will will not be exactly the same in Heaven as if was on earth."
I thought you believed there was no human free will in heaven! Now, it seems you are waffling.
This would be because the tempter would not be allowed in Heaven.
08 Mar 06
1 edit
Originally posted by dj2beckerThat wasn't the quote I had in mind.
My exact words were: "Free-will will not be exactly the same in Heaven as if was on earth."
This would be because the tempter would not be allowed in Heaven.
(emphasis mine)
"In a sense, they will all receive a new body which is perfect. I believe this body will not have the capacity to sin, and in that sense, yes, the free-will will not be totally the same as it was on earth."
-dj2becker, 7th post on page 5 of this thread.
A person without capacity to 'sin' (which can include something as simple as thinking the wrong thoughts, according to some), in my opinion, does not have any significant capacity of free will.
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09 Mar 06
Originally posted by BigDoggProblemA person without capacity to 'sin' (which can include something as simple as thinking the wrong thoughts, according to some), in my opinion, does not have any significant capacity of free will.
That wasn't the quote I had in mind.
(emphasis mine)
"[b]In a sense, they will all receive a new body which is perfect. I believe this body will not have the capacity to sin, and in that sense, yes, the free-will will not be totally the same as it was on earth."
-dj2becker, 7th post on page 5 of this thread.
A person without capaci ...[text shortened]... ts, according to some), in my opinion, does not have any significant capacity of free will.[/b]
If a person would not sin even if he could, would he not still have a significant capacity of free-will?