26 Apr 19
@galveston75 saidWould you say that a man that does not understand hell can be cast out of the Kingdom of God.
Oh yes for sure. Don't read anything that could possibly make you learn something. Very smart strategy...
@galveston75 saidWhat was the last piece of religious writing which you read and learned something from which was not produced by the Watchtower?
Oh yes for sure. Don't read anything that could possibly make you learn something. Very smart strategy...
27 Apr 19
@galveston75 saidI heard of a river catching fire in Cleveland, Ohio 40 or 50 years ago. Is that it ?
What is the "lake of fire"? Is it the same place as "hell"?
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28 Apr 19
5 edits
So what is the "lake of fire"? Is it a real place? hardly....
Galveston, if you say that "the lake of fire" is in no way, and in no possible sense a place then someone may just as easily say eternal life is in no sense a place.
Matthew 25:26 says
And these shall go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.
Saying "eternal punishment" which is in verse "the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels" (v.41) is nothing, nowhere, no place, with no reality, no substance or truth to it, a non-reality, THEN with the same logic you could argue that "the eternal life" neither exists.
What gives you the ground to say that "eternal punishment" is not real but "eternal life" IS?
The five Bible verses that mention “the lake of fire” show it to be a symbol rather than a literal lake. (Revelation 19:20; 20:10, 14, 15; 21:8) The following are cast into the lake of fire:
It is not so symbolic that it is not to be considered a terrible destiny.
You can hardly symbolize the awfulness out of it.
Revelation 19:20
And the beast was seized, and with him the false prophet, who in his presence had done the signs by which he deceived those who worshipped his image. These two were cast alive into the lake of fire, which burns with brimestone.
You argue below that these should not be regarded as human persons. However the number of the beast is "the number of a man" (Rev. 13:18). The pronouns "him" and 'who" and "he" and "his" strongly indicate men are what the Bible means here.
If you insist that they are collective entities it doesn't match that "these TWO" were "were cast alive into the lake of fire."
If they were collective it might have said "all these" rather than "these two". And that they went there "alive" underscores both the awfulness of their punishment and that they are living men, very evil.
Revelation 20:10
And the devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimsetone, where also the beast and the false prophet were; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
1.) We cannot say that God cannot punish a rebellious angel.
2.) While understanding how God would it communicates to what we do understand that the same - the Devil will be punished forever.
3.) The fact that the two former punished ones are still there to form a "THEY" in "and THEY shall be tormented day and night forever and ever" indicates that the beast and the false prophet are still there though they were sent there one thousand years earlier.
4.) Whether the beast and the false prophet are dead or alive we are not told. We are only told that "THEY" proves that they are still being punished by then and on into eternity.
5.) Difficulties with the physics of angel punishment or with imagining such a place on earth are not enough to render the essential prediction benign.
Verse 14
And death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.
1.) But it does not say death will be tormented and it doesn't say Hades will be tormented. So here the symbolism may mean that John saw the two personages of death as a horse and rider and Hades following as a horse were seen going to that lake of fire.
2.) Death and Hades as entities or "places" are hated by God and no longer needed. That grand garbage disposal is this lake of fire.
3.) I would not argue that "Because Death and Hades are seen going into the lake of fire therefore the beast and the false prophet and even the Devil cannot be punished forever and ever."
4.) It is called "the second death". It stands for God's dealing with beings beyond death. Otherwise it would be simply the first death.
You are actually undoing the warning of the Lord that men SHOULD fear God Whose ability to judge goes beyond their physical death. Jesus says "Yes, fear this One." But your teaching is the opposite of His warning.
But I will show you whom you should fear; fear Him who, after killing, has the authority to cast into Gehenna; yes, I tell you, fear this One." (Luke 12:5)
Don't argue that this is Gehenna and not the lake of fire. The point is that men should realize the authority of God is infinite in its reach. They must rightly respect that His authority to deal with humans can extend far beyond what other human beings are able to execute.
"...yes, I tell you, fear this One." is Christ's teaching. You are teaching the direct OPPOSITE to undo His teaching.
Instead of arguing punishment beyond death from God should not be feared you should go on to see that there is no reason to fear to those who trust themselves to God's care and God's salvation. This is seen in the next few sentences.
" ... yes, I tell you, fear this One. Are not five sparrows sold for two assaria? And not one of them is forgotten before God. But even the hairs of your head have all been numbered. DO NOT BE AFRAID, you are of more value than many sparrows." (vs5c,6,7)
Fear God and an adversary and Judge .
Do not fear if you regard Him as your Savior and Creator.
@sonship saidQuoting text from a book doesn't make it real.
@galveston75
Revelation 19:20And the beast was seized, and with him the false prophet, who in his presence had done the signs by which he deceived those who worshipped his image. These two were cast alive into the lake of fire, which burns with brimestone.
Please see a doctor.
28 Apr 19
@sonship saidThis is grossly incorrect. Man is to fear God regardless of whether or not he regards him as Saviour and Creator. Those who profess faith are in an especially serious position. Paul explains:
@galveston75
[quote] Fear God and an adversary and Judge .
Do not fear if you regard Him as your Savior and Creator.
For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people. It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. (Hebrews 10:25-31 KJV)
Sore punishment awaits those who profess faith, know the truth and then continue to sin.
You preach nonsense and lies. You fool the gullible and annoy those who know better.
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28 Apr 19
2 edits
Verse 15
And if anyone was not found written in the book of life, he was cast into the lake of fire.
"Anyone" shows individuals making the concept of collective entities symbolized by "beasts" of no comfort.
We are just told that "the second death" will be the destiny of anyone whose name is not recorded in the book of life.
You are making it that their fate is the first death. That Bible says their fate is "the second death" .
The Devil. (Revelation 20:10) As a spirit creature, the Devil cannot be harmed by literal fire.—Exodus 3:2; Judges 13:20.
It is not our business how God could harm a being like Satan. He communicates though that he WILL be harmed in terms that we can readily understand.
God's hands are not tied so that Satan and the fallen angels are beyond Divine ability to punish.
" ... the eternal fire PREPARED for the devil and his angels" (Matt. 25:41)
We do not have to know the science of it. We know a punishment has been PREPARED for the devil and his angels. And it is an eternal fire.
Do you KNOW that God cannot produce a fire to punish angels?
Do you KNOW that God cannot combine a regular fire with angel punishing fire in one place?
The demons were evil spirits ---- "spirits". And they knew that their inescapable fate is to be tormented. They only demand that it be not BEFORE the appointed time.
And behold, they [the demons] cried out, saying, What do we have to do with You, Son of God? Have you come here before the time to torment us? (Matt. 8:29)
Being spirits did not stop them from worrying about their future punishment of torment.
@divegeester saidLet me put forward some corrections as a "heller."
According to the hellers in here it is the following:
- it is a created place conceived and designed for the purpose of torturing non Christians for eternity by supernaturally keeping them alive.
- It is absolutely literal, but no one can say where it actually is.
- it is fuelled by something but nobody can say what.
- Jesus and his angels himself will be overseeing ...[text shortened]... according to sonship this is God’s “perfect justice” for the thought crime of not believing in him.
I. Hell is uncreated. It is the same light that comes from God which is to those who love him a purifying essence that brings them near to God and puts them in the right state to be in His Kingdom, and continues to warm them. It is his love.
This light burns others to those who rejected Him, and to those who do not wish to be with God. It is purely the result of their choices and character.
II. It is literal but not yet existent. The reason that it cannot be "located" as to where it is is because it does not yet exist. However, it is said that Hades already exists, and those who die now in the faith go to another state that is similar to heaven but not heaven -- there isn't a name of this that I am aware of but I am sure one exists somewhere -- while Hades itself now functions as a temporary hell until the actual hell will occur for those who died in rejection of Christ.
III. It is fueled by God's light. The uncreated light of God, which burns away our impurities on judgment day and is like a love to us, is the same thing which is a burning fire to those who reject God.
IV. No one is "overseeing" the carnage. Hell is, by definition, cut off from God, making it so that it is away from God, and none of the angels who fell from heaven will be involved in it.
29 Apr 19
@galveston75 saidI think the short answer is "yes"
What is the "lake of fire"? Is it the same place as "hell"?
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Death. (Revelation 20:14) This is not a literal entity but represents a state of inactivity, the absence of life. (Ecclesiastes 9:10) Death cannot literally be burned.
The book of Ecclesiastes is only the point of view of human beings "under the sun". It speaks to the typical limits of human knowledge as circumscribed by normal physical living in this present state of physical life.
Therefore, from this standpoint there is no knowledge, no activity, no continuation of man once he leaves this realm of "under the sun" and dies. Experientially Solomon, an exceedingly wise man, knows of nothing in a realm to which he has not yet gone.
The rest of the Bible besides Ecclesiates does not confirm that there is no activity in Hades, in the realm of death.
1.) Samuel's spirit was resting in death and without being physically resurrected he was brought up, accompanied by angels and spoke to king Saul. First Samuel 28:3-25.
That was activity from beyond physical life when the departed spirit of Samuel predicted Saul's coming death.
2.) Jesus tells the story of the rich man who was in torment in Hades yet was able to converse with Abraham who was also dead and was with the beggar Lazarus who was being comforted with him. (Luke 16:19-31).
We can't say that there was no activity. The conversation was some activity.
"And in Hades he [the rich man] lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and saw Abraham from afar and Lazarus in his bosom. And he called out and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me and send Lazarus to dip his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in torment in this flame." (v.24)
To converse is activity. He requested activity which was denied.
If these events were totally impossible in any conceivable way to happen, Jesus Christ would be unrighteous to leave an impression that such a thing could happen to someone DEAD.
The warning of the whole lesson given by Jesus does not argue for it being IMPOSSIBLE to happen.
3.) When Jesus died He was active in the realm of the dead and announced victory to some listeners whose lives originated back in the days of Noah. Christ's announcing things to them was His activity sometime during the three days of His being physically dead.
For Christ also ... being put to death in the flesh, but on the other, made alive in the Spirit;
In which also He went and proclaimed to the spirits in prison, who had formerly disobeyed when the long-suffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, ..." (See First Peter 3:18-20)
Christ's going to these spirits and proclaiming was His activity.
4.) The soul's underneath the altar in Revelation 6:9-11 are crying out prayer for God to avenge their blood on those evil God haters who are still alive persecuting His saints.
And when He opened the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and because of the testimony which they had.
And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Master, holy and true, will You not judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth? (Rev. 6:9,10)
They are told to rest yet a little longer. We cannot say that this is no activity. Their petitioning to God is activity.
5.) The the confession that Jesus is Lord, is to be made by those in heaven, on earth, and under the earth (dead).
"And every creature which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and on the sea and all things in them, I heard saying. To Him who sits upon the throne and to the Lamb be the blessing and the honor and the glory and the might forever and ever." (Rev. 5:13)
This universal worship includes activity from those in the realm of death.
6.) The universal worship of Jesus Christ also includes those in death "under the earth".
That in the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those who are in heaven and those on earth and under the earth, and every tongue should openly confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father." (Phil. 2:10,11)
Their confession and bowing of the knee involves activity even if we do not know how such things could BE because our limited experience.
So even those Solomon says under the sun as far as we know physical death is the end of everything pertaining to man, the whole rest of the Bible pulls back the curtain of revelation and we see some activity from departed humans.
And it is also evident that Solomon couched his observations about death in a question, asking - "WHO KNOWS". In other words no one has come back from the grave to tell the world of what goes on or doesn't.
All go to one place; all are of dust, and all return to dust.
Who knows the breath if the children of men, that it goes upward; or the breath of the beasts, that it goes downward to the earth?" (Ecc. 3:20,21)
There is no experiential knowledge of anyone LIVING what happens in death. "WHO KNOWS?" But there is revelation from the word of God to let us know something.
29 Apr 19
@sonship said
There is no experiential knowledge of anyone LIVING what happens in death.
Do you dismiss all the accounts of people, even Christians, who have clinically died and been brought back to life with accounts of what they experienced on the ‘other side’?
29 Apr 19
1 edit
@philokalia saidI do wonder which Christians it was who thumbed-up your scripturally unsupported ideas in your posts.
Let me put forward some corrections as a "heller."
I. Hell is uncreated. It is the same light that comes from God which is to those who love him a purifying essence that brings them near to God and puts them in the right state to be in His Kingdom, and continues to warm them. It is his love.
This light burns others to those who rejected Him, and to those who ...[text shortened]... that it is away from God, and none of the angels who fell from heaven will be involved in it.
Anyway hell (such as it is) is eternal, or at least everlasting according to Jude 7:7 and there are others of course.
“Likewise, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities, which, in the same manner as they, indulged in sexual immorality and pursued unnatural lust, serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire.”
Please find some scripture to support that the fuel of the fire of hell is “god’s light” “god’s love”??
Jesus the lamb is in hell with his angels. It clearly and unequivocally say so in the book of Revelation!
You don’t know your bible Jacob.
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29 Apr 19
4 edits
Jesus the lamb is in hell with his angels. It clearly and unequivocally say so in the book of Revelation!
No it does not say this.
It says the followers of Antichrist will be tormented before Christ and His holy angels.
" ... If anyone worships the beast and his image and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, he also shall drink the wine of the fury of God, which is mixed undiluted in the cup of His wrath,
and he shall be tormented in fire and brimstone before the holy angels and before the Lamb. " (Rev. 14:9,10)
It doesn't say they are in Hades.
It doesn't say they are in Hell.
And even if they were in Hell or Hades the Bible says that Sheol and Destruction "lie open before Jehovah" which doesn't insist Christ has to go there, get a seat, and watch them forever.
Proverbs 15:11
Sheol and Abaddon lie open before Jehovah. How much more the hearts of the children of men!
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29 Apr 19
Do you dismiss all the accounts of people, even Christians, who have clinically died and been brought back to life with accounts of what they experienced on the ‘other side’?
I don't know much about these. I would not put a great deal of confidence in any of them.
And the nature of the ones I heard are still pretty much a matter of "Who knows?" They said they experienced something but they are not sure themselves. Which leaves it all in the realm of "Who knows?" IMO.