29 Apr 19
@divegeester saidI actually never stated that hell is not eternal, but merely that the hell as we know it has not come into being, and when it does come into being, it will be eternal.
I do wonder which Christians it was who thumbed-up your scripturally unsupported ideas in your posts.
Anyway hell (such as it is) is eternal, or at least everlasting according to Jude 7:7 and there are others of course.
[i]“Likewise, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities, which, in the same manner as they, indulged in sexual immorality and pursued unnatural ...[text shortened]... It clearly and unequivocally say so in the book of Revelation!
You don’t know your bible Jacob.
Here is an excerpt on God's fire being the eternal fire:
This experience is the sight of Christ in the uncreated light of His divinity, of His "glory". From the moment of His Second Coming, through to all eternity, all people will be seeing Christ in His uncreated light. That is when "those who worked good deeds in their lifetime will go towards the resurrection of life, while those who worked evil in their lifetime will go towards the resurrection of judgment" (Jn.5:29). In the presence of Christ, mankind will be separated (like "sheep" and "kidgoats", to His right and His left). In other words, they will be discerning in two separate groups: those who will be behold Christ as paradise (the "exceeding good, the radiant"😉 and those who will be looking upon Christ as hell ("the all-consuming fire" of Hebrews 12:29).
Paradise and hell are the same reality. This is what is depicted in the portrayal of the Second Coming. From Christ, a river of fire flows forth. It is radiant like a golden light at the upper end of it, where the saints are. At its lower end, the same river is fiery, and it is in that part of the river that the demons and the unrepentant ("the never repentant" according to a hymn) are depicted. This is why in Luke 2:34 we read that Christ stands "as the fall and the resurrection of many". Christ becomes the resurrection into eternal life for those who accepted Him and who followed the means given for the healing the heart. To those who rejected Him, however, He becomes their separation and their hell.
Among the patristic testimonies, Saint John of Sinai (of the Ladder) says that the uncreated light of Christ is "an all-consuming fire and an illuminating light". Saint Gregory Palamas (E.P.E. II, 498) observes: "Thus, it is said, He will baptize you by the Holy Spirit and by fire: in other words, by illumination and judgment, depending on each person's predisposition, which will in itself bring upon him that which he deserves." Elsewhere, (Essays, P. Christou Publications, vol.2, page 145): The light of Christ, "albeit one and accessible to all, is not partaken of uniformly, but differently".
Consequently, paradise and hell are not a reward or a punishment (condemnation), but the way that we individually experience the sight of Christ, depending on the condition of our heart. God doesn't punish in essence, although, for educative purposes, the Scripture does mention punishment. The more spiritual that one becomes, the better he can comprehend the language of the Scripture and Sacred Tradition. Man's condition (clean-unclean, repentant-unrepentant) is the factor that determines the acceptance of the Light as "paradise" or "hell".
http://www.orthodoxytoday.org/articles-2009/Mettalinos-Paradise-And-Hell-According-To-Orthodox-Tradition.php
For your reference, Hebrews 12:29 states:
For our God is indeed a devouring fire.
Thus the core of the belief that God Himself is the fire which devours.
29 Apr 19
@sonship saidOh I see, so there are multiple places where your God will be burning non Christians alive for eternity.
@divegeester
Jesus the lamb is in hell with his angels. It clearly and unequivocally say so in the book of Revelation!
No it does not say this.
It says the followers of Antichrist will be tormented before Christ and His holy angels.
" ... If anyone worships the beast and his image and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, he ...[text shortened]... l and Abaddon lie open before Jehovah. How much more the hearts of the children of men![/b]
Whatever floats your sick boat sonship.
29 Apr 19
@sonship saidIf you don’t know much about them then why would you dismiss them?
@divegeester
Do you dismiss all the accounts of people, even Christians, who have clinically died and been brought back to life with accounts of what they experienced on the ‘other side’?
I don't know much about these. I would not put a great deal of confidence in any of them.
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29 Apr 19
1 edit
If you don’t know much about them then why would you dismiss them?
Did I use the word "dismiss"?
Or did I just say I didn't put a lot of stock in them?
If I came espousing them you would probably quickly take the opposite view.
It seems you first find my position and then go contrary to it.
What I need to know about death is mainly in God's revelation in the Bible.
I'll listen to someone's account.
I don't have to elevate it to equal or even close equality to the word of God.
You do so if you want to.
29 Apr 19
@sonship saidActually I don’t put much stock in them either.
@divegeester
If you don’t know much about them then why would you dismiss them?
Did I use the word "dismiss"?
Or did I just say I didn't put a lot of stock in them?
If I came espousing them you would probably quickly take the opposite view.
It seems you first find my position and then go contrary to it.
What I need to know about death is mainly ...[text shortened]... 't have to elevate it to equal or even close equality to the word of God.
You do so if you want to.
@galveston75 said1st death is when you become a JW
So the bible talks about 2 types of death. The 1st death and then the 2nd death. Would anyone like to take a stab at this? But keep it simple because it is a very simple thing to explain...
2nd death is when God destroys you for being so stupid.
29 Apr 19
@rajk999 saidIs this the best you can do? Come on man!!!! Must not have a clue to this question huh? Nothing new.....
1st death is when you become a JW
2nd death is when God destroys you for being so stupid.
29 Apr 19
@galveston75 saidYou really are shameless. I produced quotes from the Watchtower pertaining to the fact that JWs believe that only they will survive the Armageddon.
Is this the best you can do? Come on man!!!! Must not have a clue to this question huh? Nothing new.....
You said this is not true.
I proved that you are a liar.
29 Apr 19
@rajk999 saidAre you not able to stick to the thread or do you just not have an answer?
You really are shameless. I produced quotes from the Watchtower pertaining to the fact that JWs believe that only they will survive the Armageddon.
You said this is not true.
I proved that you are a liar.
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30 Apr 19
3 edits
So the bible talks about 2 types of death. The 1st death and then the 2nd death. Would anyone like to take a stab at this? But keep it simple because it is a very simple thing to explain...
Understand that when I respect your request to keep it simple, chances are you will only come back to question more or raise an objection or point out a problem or draw attention to something I "forgot" to consider.
So "keep it simple" I will. But I expect that this will not be the end of the matter then.
From The Life Study of Revelation by Witness Lee
The death before resurrection is the first death, and the death after resurrection is the second death. The second death, the lake of fire, refers to death after resurrection. In the first death the spirit and soul leave the body, the body is buried, and the spirit and soul go to Hades—the spirit and soul of the believer to the section of comfort in Hades, and the spirit and soul of the unbeliever to the section of torment. The Lord Jesus will determine who among the dead will be resurrected before the millennium and who will be left in the tomb for another thousand years to be resurrected after the millennium. After the unbelievers are resurrected, they will be judged at the great white throne (20:11-15). The dead unbelievers will be cast into the lake of fire, the second death. This means that even after their resurrection, they will still suffer the second death.
https://www.ministrybooks.org/SearchMinBooksDsp.cfm?id=3406CCFDC1
30 Apr 19
@galveston75 saidRajk999's quotes from the Watchtower do make you a liar, I'm afraid, because you were confronted with two of those quotes here on this forum a few years ago when you were insisting no such proclamations would be found in the Watchtower.
Are you not able to stick to the thread or do you just not have an answer?
So you already knew that they existed when, on THIS occasion, you insisted that the JW organization makes no such claims about its members. That makes you a liar because you stated untrue things despite knowing full well that they were not true.
30 Apr 19
@fmf saidHe does not think outright lying is a big deal.
Rajk999's quotes from the Watchtower do make you a liar, I'm afraid, because you were confronted with two of those quotes here on this forum a few years ago when you were insisting no such proclamations would be found in the Watchtower.
So you already knew that they existed when, on THIS occasion, you insisted that the JW organization makes no such claims about its members. T ...[text shortened]... makes you a liar because you stated untrue things despite knowing full well that they were not true.