Spirituality
20 Oct 18
27 Oct 18
@kellyjay saidSo what is your personal interpretation of the words? Is it not a metaphor or literary conceit signifying 'not going to Heaven"'? If it is literally a place [which, interestingly enough, you cannot describe, despite you insisting it is a real place], isn't that your personal interpretation of what those words mean?
Let us break it down, two words.
Hell this is a bad place of suffering.
Eternal this means forever.
If we put them together as they are written what do we get?
Eternal Hell.
Seem simple enough for me, but you don't believe in the whole thing anyway so what?
27 Oct 18
@kellyjay saidIs the "suffering" in fact the fear - while living - that one is not going to "Heaven" and the notion - from the perspective of the living - that it would be bad not to go to "Heaven"? Seeing as we all obviously die and get buried or cremated and then it's all over, surely the metaphor of "Hell" is simply a device to encourage religious obedience and observance among the living?
Hell this is a bad place of suffering.
@fmf saidDo a word study.
Is the "suffering" in fact the fear - while living - that one is not going to "Heaven" and the notion - from the perspective of the living - that it would be bad not to go to "Heaven"? Seeing as we all obviously die and get buried or cremated and then it's all over, surely the metaphor of "Hell" is simply a device to encourage religious obedience and observance among the living?
27 Oct 18
@kellyjay saidThe point is, KellyJay, that your insistence that you are not interpreting scripture and that you are somehow not choosing what is analogy, what is allegory, what is metaphor and what is real ~ according to that personal interpretation of yours ~ and that it is, instead, some kind of 'pure' interpretation-free access you have to the meaning ~ is an awfully rickety rhetorical fence that you have erected around your ideology.
Do a word study.
27 Oct 18
@sonship saidAfter what you said to Ghost of a duke last night I have to say that have no credibility with me sonship
@divegeester
No I don't, I reject your nonsense literalist view of biblical scripture.
Then you accept that in this passage Jesus is teaching that greater fear should be rendered to God. And that because physical death does not put one beyond His ability to further punish -
Luke 12:4,5
[quote] "And I say to you My friends, Do not fear th ...[text shortened]... earful words on KellyJay or someone else like me ??
Those words are the fault of our literalism ?
27 Oct 18
@kellyjay saidWhen you start being honest and transparent about what is literal and what I’d metaphor in the bible we will be able to move forward. Your lame platitudes about “not taking anything away” don’t move me in the slightest.
I take the text as written in its context, I'm not making it mean anything other
than what it says. If it says eternal Hell, I'm not adding to or taking anything away
I'm just accepting it as is. You are the on that is interpreting it to mean something
different, or nothing at all when it clearly says the things it does. So if you have
an issue with the text as written, take it up with someone else, I didn't write it.
- Joined
- 03 Jan 13
- Moves
- 13080
After what you said to Ghost of a duke last night I have to say that have no credibility with me sonship
Ummm, like I had some with you before ??
I don't have to have credibility with you for you to simply answer the question objectively about the text. Nice try though.
On Luke 12:4,5, is the sober warning of this passage the fault of Kellyjay's or my literalism ?
Evasion noted. And it is now time for you to take a little of your own favorite medicine -
Just answer the question instead of posting waffle.- Divegeester
@divegeester saidI don't care one wit what you want to move forward with, I'm not pushing the views
When you start being honest and transparent about what is literal and what I’d metaphor in the bible we will be able to move forward. Your lame platitudes about “not taking anything away” don’t move me in the slightest.
that the scriptures don't mean what they say. If you don't agree with the truth of
scripture what has that to do with me? I didn't write the scripture, I read it as the
next guy so the truth of the scripture is there for all to see. If the truth of scripture
is something foul to you, that too is what to me? Your issues are not with me I
did not write the text, I'm not the one between us who looks at things Jesus said
in text and calls those who believe Him are some how at fault. You have gone after
ThinkOfOne about verses you want Him to respond about, judging Him in error
if He doesn't own up to them, but you do the same thing with different text. You
want to put down the parts of the Word you find disagreeable, trying hiding it
from those that may need to see it.
2 Corinthians 4:2-4 English Standard Version (ESV)
2 But we have renounced disgraceful, underhanded ways. We refuse to practice cunning or to tamper with God's word, but by the open statement of the truth we would commend ourselves to everyone's conscience in the sight of God. 3 And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing. 4 In their case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.
27 Oct 18
@kellyjay saidMore waffly fur balls from you. Here is the point of this thread:
I don't care one wit what you want to move forward with, I'm not pushing the views
that the scriptures don't mean what they say. If you don't agree with the truth of
scripture what has that to do with me? I didn't write the scripture, I read it as the
next guy so the truth of the scripture is there for all to see. If the truth of scripture
is something foul to you, that ...[text shortened]... s, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.
I claim hell is a metaphor, you claim it is literal.
In order to hold to this precious doctrine of death you have also claimed that the entire 19th chapter of Revelation, including men with swords coming out of their mouths, is completely literal. You then claim that some of Revelation is symbolic.
I’m asking you what in the wider book of Revelation is “symbolic” and what isn’t and how you discern between them?
And you can’t.
The literal existence of Hell is therefore, for the purposes of our discussion, unproven.
- Joined
- 01 Oct 04
- Moves
- 12095
@divegeester saidWhen you say hell is a metaphor, what is being compared to what exactly and why?
More waffly fur balls from you. Here is the point of this thread:
I claim hell is a metaphor, you claim it is literal.
In order to hold to this precious doctrine of death you have also claimed that the entire 19th chapter of Revelation, including men with swords coming out of their mouths, is completely literal. You then claim that some of Revelation is symbolic.
...[text shortened]... can’t.
The literal existence of Hell is therefore, for the purposes of our discussion, unproven.
@divegeester saidYou claim Hell is a metaphor yet you acknowledge its truth.
More waffly fur balls from you. Here is the point of this thread:
I claim hell is a metaphor, you claim it is literal.
In order to hold to this precious doctrine of death you have also claimed that the entire 19th chapter of Revelation, including men with swords coming out of their mouths, is completely literal. You then claim that some of Revelation is symbolic.
...[text shortened]... can’t.
The literal existence of Hell is therefore, for the purposes of our discussion, unproven.
So it doesn't matter if it is symbolic or literal its truth, therefore what do you do
with Hell as described its truth! No matter how you view it there is a very real
eternal punishment for sin in their lives.
So if its truth and people need it hear to be saved, you attempt to hide it from
those that need to hear it.
2 Corinthians 4:2-4 English Standard Version (ESV)
2 But we have renounced disgraceful, underhanded ways. We refuse to practice cunning or to tamper with God's word, but by the open statement of the truth we would commend ourselves to everyone's conscience in the sight of God. 3 And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing. 4 In their case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.
27 Oct 18
@kellyjay saidI acknowledge that it’s a metaphor like the seeds in parable of the sower are metaphors for something else. The metaphor is still true.
You claim Hell is a metaphor yet you acknowledge its truth.
So it doesn't matter if it is symbolic or literal its truth, therefore what do you do
with Hell as described its truth! No matter how you view it there is a very real
eternal punishment for sin in their lives.
So if its truth and people need it hear to be saved, you attempt to hide it from
those that need to hear it.
I explained this to you yesterday. Are you pretending that you didn’t read my response?
Hell is a metaphor. Propagating that Jesus is literally in hell personally overseeing the deliberate premeditated eternal torture of billions of people is revolting gross error, it is morally incoherent and completely out of sync with the nature of God in the gospels.
It is a doctrine of death.