23 Jul 05
Hi Kelly, good idea. We have three churches in our town here, a Catholic, a Uniting and the Anglican. The Anglican one is where I had all the problems. And it's very interesting to me that the Anglican one is where I had all the problems. Because I went to an Anglican private girls' school and got bullied a lot, and the teachers would just turn their backs and tell me that they are there to teach and I am here to learn and I have to learn to deal with it on my own. Well I am copping the same treatment from this Church that I decided to leave. I thought first of all that it was just my school that was like this, but I am thinking that the reason the school was like it was was maybe because of the Anglican Church and the way it's set up? Interesting.
Mary Rose
23 Jul 05
2 edits
Originally posted by frogstompPlease if you would, put in quotes the answers to my evil questions!
Kelly. he really did answer that, unless you think he'd create an evil goddess to make him eternally miserable.
I saw him bad mouth God by saying God had ego issues! He talked
about the sky, water, and getting sex so he would not be bored and
so on, but evil was addressed where? Would he build into his creation
avoidance of doing or thinking evil, thus limiting their abilities to think,
or punish right away those that knew better by striking them down on
the spot? What was said about how he would handle evil? He would
not waist his time creating anyone outside of the one he wanted to
have sex with, was that the answer you saw?
Kelly
23 Jul 05
Originally posted by MaryRoseYou must be in a small town with only three churches. We ended up
Hi Kelly, good idea. We have three churches in our town here, a Catholic, a Uniting and the Anglican. The Anglican one is where I had all the problems. And it's very interesting to me that the Anglican one is where I had all the problems. Because I went to an Anglican private girls' school and got bullied a lot, and the teachers would just turn their back ...[text shortened]... was was maybe because of the Anglican Church and the way it's set up? Interesting.
Mary Rose
going to another town to fellowship, not the one we live in. Some
times fellowships are small and don't have a building of their own
which was what ended up joining. Good luck in your search, I'll pray
you find a good one.
Kelly
23 Jul 05
Originally posted by KellyJaythis was what he replied to:
evil
what
would
you
have
done
?
Kelly
"Let me ask you something, would you simply have rejected evil
outright at the beginning of the universe? Would you have allowed
the choices to be made for evil, but punish those that made them?
How would you have done it? "....Kelly
And that's what he was answering.
23 Jul 05
3 edits
Originally posted by KellyJaywho said anything about sex?? the goddess and i were going to talk and play chess to occupy our time. besides being curvaceous, she's a feisty chess player.
Please if you would, put in quotes the answers to my evil questions!
I saw him bad mouth God by saying God had ego issues! He talked
about the sky, water, and getting sex so he would not be bored and
so on, but evil was addressed where? ...[text shortened]... e he wanted to
have sex with, was that the answer you saw?
Kelly
if i were god, what would be the point (relative to my view) of even creating people, if not to stroke my gigantic ego?
supposing i were to create some people, you are asking how i would handle 'evil'. what would be the point of even introducing evil or suffering? what is there available to us in a world with suffering that is not available to us in a world without suffering? if you say free will, then i disagree; i could grant these people free will and still prevent suffering. if you say that suffering is needed to truly appreciate the good times in life, that's also nonsense; i'm omnipotent, so i can program these people such that any type of awareness is fully available to their cognition inherently. if you say suffering is needed to test these people, why would i want to test them? so that i can toss some of them away when they are not up to my self-imposed standards even though i made them to be who they are? how arbitrary is that?
perhaps it is the case that there are standards of testing that exist outside of my realm of influence or creation. i could create these people and then introduce evil and suffering and see how they live up to these non-self-imposed standards. i could also grant them free will and let them have at each other, Lord of the Flies style. sure, i could do all that. but i would be a callous god because i am rather indifferent to how much suffering they must endure to prove themselves. i am also callous (or just downright mean) in that i am more than willing to toss some of these people in the fires. it would be rather untruthful and presumptuous of me to call myself a god of love in that case. i would also be bending the rules unfairly for my own gain if i say that these people automatically fail the test because they don't sufficiently acknowledge my existence (even though they may sufficiently live up to the non-self-imposed standards of living). also, who would i be to say what is 'sufficiently living up to standards' anyhow in that case?
24 Jul 05
Originally posted by MaryRoseHi MaryRose, it is good that you are making decisions and learning to question things which you have been told to accept as fact with no justification.
Hi Kelly, good idea. We have three churches in our town here, a Catholic, a Uniting and the Anglican. The Anglican one is where I had all the problems. And it's very interesting to me that the Anglican one is where I had all the problems. Because I went to an Anglican private girls' school and got bullied a lot, and the teachers would just turn their back ...[text shortened]... was was maybe because of the Anglican Church and the way it's set up? Interesting.
Mary Rose
What you are doing is philosophising. That is, you are thinking for yourself and becoming a more complete person who can stand on their own two feet.
When you think about it, it is very silly that human beings today believe what is written in the bible without doubting the authenticity of what it says. After all, it was written by humans thousands of years ago when we still believed that the Earth was flat!
These people who wrote the bible did not know about electricity, bacteria, and even thought that lightning and thunder were God's vengeance.
So well done in taking the first step to true enlightenment; education and the rejection of spoon-fed dogma.
Keep it up, and remain strong.
If you can, try reading an excellent book called "Problems of Philosophy" by Bertrand Russell.
It is quite an easy read and will change the way you think about everything, and open your eyes to a few things which you probably took for granted.
Take care and let us all know of your progress!
Cheers, Howard.
24 Jul 05
Hi Kelly just thought you would like to hear this. My minister apparently rang me up on Saturday. At the moment I am staying at my mum's place to mind her cat. Anyway I rang him back today and he invited me to the evening service which I went to and he made peace with me and he explained things to me and I felt better about what happened at Church. And apparently this woman who picks on me all the time will only go to the morning services so if I go to the evening services she will never be there and I did go tonight and it was really nice. Also a couple called Paul and Liz gave me a lift back to Mum's place and I feel better about it all. Thanks for reading and I appreciate what you said. Also I've made the decision to stop going to bible study groups because I don't think I really want to get involved in the politics of the Church again if I can help it and I feel I can avoid that by just going to the Sunday service and that's it.
24 Jul 05
Originally posted by MaryRoseI'm glad to hear things are working out. I love Bible studies, I hope
Hi Kelly just thought you would like to hear this. My minister apparently rang me up on Saturday. At the moment I am staying at my mum's place to mind her cat. Anyway I rang him back today and he invited me to the evening service which I went to and he made peace with me and he explained things to me and I felt better about what happened at Church. And app ...[text shortened]... f I can help it and I feel I can avoid that by just going to the Sunday service and that's it.
you find some people that care more about what is inside the book
than local church politics. It makes life sweeter in my opinion to
find a good bunch of fellow believers who are authentic.
Kelly
24 Jul 05
3 edits
Originally posted by LemonJelloOriginally posted by LemonJello
who said anything about sex?? the goddess and i were going to talk and play chess to occupy our time. besides being curvaceous, she's a feisty chess player.
if i were god, what would be the point (relative to my view) of even creat ...[text shortened]... at is 'sufficiently living up to standards' anyhow in that case?
who said anything about sex?? the goddess and i were going to talk and play chess to occupy our time. besides being curvaceous, she's a feisty chess player.
if i were god, what would be the point (relative to my view) of even creating people, if not to stroke my gigantic ego?
Okay, no sex for you, my bad. Are you going to give her the ability to
beat you at chess? You going to make her smart enough to come up
with idea’s of her own and the ability to express herself, act on what
she wants? Her wants, they going to be limited to those thing you want
her to want, and program her to only choose those things pleasing to
you, or give her free will? I am not sure what being "being curvaceous"
does for playing chess and your lack of ego, but I'm sure you have
your reasons. 🙂
I'd like to point out to you that at the end of God's creation everything
was called 'very good' it wasn't until later that evil became an issue.
This is why I've been asking about your giving choices. I'm not really
overly concern about wanting to avoid pain and suffering, they can
be good things at times too, they are good teachers. They help us
avoid those things that would do great harm to our bodies. If your
created goddess started flipping you off and plotting against you,
would that be 'evil' in your creation? It didn't mean that you wanted it
to occur, but how do you design things to avoid that?
Kelly
24 Jul 05
Originally posted by KellyJayI'm not really overly concern about wanting to avoid pain and suffering, they can be good things at times too, they are good teachers.
Originally posted by LemonJello
who said anything about sex?? the goddess and i were going to talk and play chess to occupy our time. besides being curvaceous, she's a feisty chess player.
if i were god, what would be the point (relative to my view) of even creating people, if not to stroke my gigantic ego?
Okay, no sex for you, my bad. Are ...[text shortened]... didn't mean that you wanted it
to occur, but how do you design things to avoid that?
Kelly
okay, so pain and suffering can at times possess causal sufficiency with respect to ultimately bringing about wanted effects. fair enough. but this is not nearly strong enough to justify pain and suffering. in particular, it says nothing of logical necessity. could these teachings and useful lessons be brought about by other means? of course they could, particularly if the teacher is omni-whatnot. so, again, why is pain and suffering necessary?
you also need to address the gratuitousness that seems to be the defining feature of some pain and suffering. for example, i know a young girl who was forcibly raped by a drunken neighbor. she survived, but was left with no self-confidence, no trust in the motives of others, and the inability to conceive. in your opinion, what redeeming life lessons may come out of that incident?
It didn't mean that you wanted it to occur, but how do you design things to avoid that?
if i were omnipotent and omniscient, i would simply make it so, if i so desired. 'design' would be a transparent concept.
the bottom line is that i don't see any good reason why such a god would feel inclined to introduce evil and suffering. if he did so to grant people free will and in addition the capacity to obtain the ultimate desired effects of their actions even if it includes needless suffering, then fine. but god is therefore callous. why would he profess to be a 'god of love' in such a case?
i still don't see an obvious answer to this question either: why would god create us in the first place?
24 Jul 05
Originally posted by LemonJelloI like drinking beer, I have two a week, maybe less more times than
[b]I'm not really overly concern about wanting to avoid pain and suffering, they can be good things at times too, they are good teachers.
okay, so pain and suffering can at times possess causal sufficiency with respect to ultimately bringing about wanted effects. fair enough. but this is not nearly strong enough to justify pain and suffering. i ...[text shortened]... see an obvious answer to this question either: why would god create us in the first place? [/b]
not, one or none is the norm. Others on the other hand drink till drunk
and they cause all kinds of grief because of their actions.
It isn't that pain and suffering shouldn't be here, it is under what
conditions and amounts for what reason.
It was the attack of the drunk that caused that girl pain and
suffereing to such a great degree. It should have never have
happened. Someone was selfish and did not care what the results
were going be, they wanted what they wanted, and that was it. I'm
sure they blamed whatever they were drinking at the time too.
I'm still waiting for my answers, are you suggesting that getting
raped by a drunk should not have pain and suffering attached to it?
Pain and suffering are useful, but that rape was not, why blame pain
and suffering for that guys actions?
I again am not worring about suffering and pain, I'm concern about
evil. That girl would not have had to deal with those levels of pain and
suffereing if that man had not acted the way he did, she suffered
because of that drunks actions in raping her.
How would do you deal with evil in your kingdom?
Kelly
24 Jul 05
1 edit
Originally posted by KellyJaythe alcohol involved has nothing to do with anything. the neighbor could just as well have been completely sober. so again, what redeeming life lessons are to be found in such an incident?
I like drinking beer, I have two a week, maybe less more times than
not, one or none is the norm. Others on the other hand drink till drunk
and they cause all kinds of grief because of their actions.
It isn't that pain and suffering ...[text shortened]... ng her.
How would do you deal with evil in your kingdom?
Kelly
are you suggesting that getting raped by a drunk should not have pain and suffering attached to it?
of course not. i am suggesting that i see no good reason why an omnipotent, omniscient, morally perfect god would allow such an incident to occur at all. period. you say that pain and suffering can in certain cases lead to good effects. i am not disputing that point. but not all incidents of pain and suffering seem to carry beneficial ramifications, even in the long run. why are you closing your eyes to that fact? why do you think the christian god would allow such needless suffering, such as what that girl went (and is continually struggling) through?
Pain and suffering are useful, but that rape was not, why blame pain and suffering for that guys actions?
pain and suffering are clearly not always useful because, as you just said, that rape was not useful...unless you are saying that being raped is not a form of pain and suffering. i am not blaming anything for that guy's actions except that guy...and maybe perhaps the callous god who allowed it to happen.
How would do you deal with evil in your kingdom?
until you can demonstrate to me that evil and suffering are necessary entities, then i would deal with the evil in my kingdom by not even introducing it in the first place. and yes, i would have the ability to make that so.
25 Jul 05
Originally posted by LemonJelloThe point you seem to be making, or possibly you are not and I'm
the alcohol involved has nothing to do with anything. the neighbor could just as well have been completely sober. so again, what redeeming life lessons are to be found in such an incident?
[b]are you suggesting that getting raped by a drunk should not have pain and suffering attached to it?
of course not. i am suggesting that i see no good re ...[text shortened]... not even introducing it in the first place. and yes, i would have the ability to make that so.[/b]
reading it this way is that evil is only evil because of the pain and
suffering attached to actions. I have an uncle who threw himself
on a hand grenade and saved the people who were with him by
taking much of the blast during the Korean conflict. My uncle
lived, pain and suffering were also involved, does that make what
my uncle did evil?
I would suggest that pain and suffering reveal something to us,
but by themselves have nothing to do with good and evil they
simply are reactions to nerve impulses and mental stress and strain.
They do reveal with the levels of pain and suffering why some
good deeds are so overwhelming good and selfless, and some bad
ones are also so wickedly evil and selfish. This is done by what
people are willing to do and why, the intent of the heart. The fact
that you want to take away pain and suffering means I guess; we
should simply take someone's word for it that raping someone is
really a bad thing to do, without the pain and suffering we see today
when that deed is done.
God has allowed us to treat each other as we see fit, what we do
with that ability is simply the bed we have made for ourselves.
I’m again asking you, how would you handle evil?
Kelly