09 Jul 05
Originally posted by ilywrinOf course I realise that Heaven does not exist!
I am confused. If one is an atheist he should not believe in Heaven, thus whether someone thinks they should go there after (but is there really after?!) death is irrelevant. And despite the controversy it may cause I will say it people are moral because they believe it brings them something in return (yes, there is no free lunch):
Christians (Muslims, etc ...[text shortened]... in being good because it is the way of Tao.
What return can an atheist expect from acting good?
I am merely deriving the fact that Xtians do not believe non-xtians should go there!
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09 Jul 05
Originally posted by howardgeeI feel like i have been bashing my head against a brick wall.
Of course I realise that Heaven does not exist!
I am merely deriving the fact that Xtians do not believe non-xtians should go there!
I have said very explicitly that christians acknowledge that anyone can go to heaven (yes even atheists) if they have the capacity to do good. In fact the church teaches (Catholic that is) that you don't even have to be a good person to go to heaven (the whole Jesus dying on the cross theology) but have to repent when you learn that God exists (an epiphany). However that msut not necassarily be an apparition of God as a seven- foot wizard but as love. And out of love one must commit actions of love (i believe this would be called repentance).
A true Christian would not judge another person or condemn another to hell. Have you even met a chirstian?
09 Jul 05
Originally posted by Conrau KSo what you are saying is that there are Christians and "Christians"? A Christian is by your definition someone who acts with love, while "Christian" is someone who finds his understanding of life in the Bible and goes to Church every Sunday?
A true Christian would not judge another person or condemn another to hell. Have you even met a chirstian?
09 Jul 05
4 edits
Originally posted by frogstompLike I said, I really don’t get where you see there is a dispute between
the matt 25 quote is Christ saying who gets eternal life and who gets everlasting punishment and WHY.
It's Christ that will sit in judgement.
Jesus and Paul when it comes to the judgment of man, but we can if
you want look a few verses and see if we can find some.
We can start with a few examples of Paul pointing out that it will be
Jesus not Paul that is going to be standing in judgment of mankind,
and we can look at how this plays out too. If you have a perfect
conscience before God and man you should be okay.
Romans 12-16
“12All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. 13For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. 14(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, 15since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.) 16This will take place on the day when God will judge men's secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.”
In another book by Paul he again says it will be Jesus that judges
mankind. I don’t think there is any doubt who Paul believes is going
to have the last word in judgment. So we can just look at what Jesus
says and be stop worrying about any difference in who has the last say
and just look at what are some of the things that Jesus says about
judgment. If you have an issue where you don’t think Paul’s teaching
and Jesus’ match up, we can go over them. I just hope you have more
than one scripture out of the many that Paul and Jesus have said to
clearly show there is a division in their doctrine.
2 Timothy 4: 1-3
“1In the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who will judge the living and the dead, and in view of his appearing and his kingdom, I give you this charge: 2Preach the Word; be prepared in season and out of season; correct, rebuke and encourage—with great patience and careful instruction. 3For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine.”
John in the book of Revelation speaks about this day vividly.
Revelation 20:10-15
10And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
11Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. Earth and sky fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done. 14Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
Let’s look at some of the things Jesus said so you can get a fuller
understanding of what is going to happen on judgment day. You
should be aware that Jesus does not even deny these guys below
did he things that they claimed. Yet, in spite of these grand ‘works’
they are being cast out of the kingdom of God, for what reason?
Matthew 7:21-23
21"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'
Some other words of Jesus:
Matthew 12: 30-32
30"He who is not with me is against me, and he who does not gather with me scatters. 31And so I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. 32Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.
Matthew 12: 36-37
36But I tell you that men will have to give account on the day of judgment for every careless word they have spoken. 37For by your words you will be acquitted, and by your words you will be condemned."
As you can see, I don’t think just those two verses you quoted
covered the day of judgment well, and there are a great deal more we
can get into if you like. I just hit some of the spots I thought would
stop the confusion that some how Paul and Jesus were on different
pages as to what is going to happen.
Kelly
edit: This is why we need Jesus!
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09 Jul 05
Originally posted by ilywrinYes, thats exactly what i am saying.
So what you are saying is that there are Christians and "Christians"? A Christian is by your definition someone who acts with love, while "Christian" is someone who finds his understanding of life in the Bible and goes to Church every Sunday?
09 Jul 05
2 edits
Originally posted by KellyJayOK so where did the idea that atheists , buddhists, polytheists, hindus and any other non-christian automatic be condemned come from? It didn't come from Christ and if not Paul then who.
Like I said, I really don’t get where you see there is a dispute between
Jesus and Paul when it comes to the judgment of man, but we can if
you want look a few verses and see if we can find some.
We can start with a few examples of Pa ...[text shortened]... hat is going to happen.
Kelly
edit: This is why we need Jesus!
Also there's something called "Pauline doctrine" , and that assumes that Christ was incapable of delivering the message He was sent to deliver properly: since only an imperfect messenger would need help in making clear what that message is.
Now I read Paul as someone who knew his role was to spread that message, adding and/or removing anything to/from the message was not his intention. Somehow , somewhere , sometime Paul's writings were elevated to equivalence in authority with the words of Christ. and there are subtle differences and these seemingly small differences have grown into a mountain of error.
When I asked you if you thought Christ could have instructed Joshua to slaughter men ,women and children you answered in the afirmative and gave as a reference, Christ refering to events on judgement day. How you came to that answer comes from one word used by Paul: that word is "inspired" .
You ought to ponder just what would inspire the killing of a little one because of beliefs of the parents. You do know how Christ viewed little ones.
09 Jul 05
Hi guys. I am a Christian.
I have noticed the problems, with religion these days.
They cause wars and stuff.
The bible doesnt support such ones. God doesnt look favoriubly on those who get involved with politics and wars.
im sure you will all agree that killing people is wrong. God doesnt like it.
The bible mentions those ones, in the book of revelation.
Symbolically, he likens them to Woman who gets involved with the world leaders, and who drinks the blood of those she has helped kill. She sits upon a wicked beast with 10 horns and 7 crowns.
This woman represents false religion, who have tried to mislead many today. God isnt looking favoribly on her and the book of revelation says, the that the beast (politics) will destroy her soon, because of the trouble she makes.
In other words in the future, politics will realise religion is the cause of wars and try to uproot her.
DO YOU THINK THAT THE AMERICANS AND BRITISH WILL DO THIS, after what religious groups did to them.
It seems very likely.
Bye from Tim 🙂
09 Jul 05
Originally posted by PhledosWhy are you adding things to it? Haven't you read it?
Hi guys. I am a Christian.
I have noticed the problems, with religion these days.
They cause wars and stuff.
The bible doesnt support such ones. God doesnt look favoriubly on those who get involved with politics and wars.
im sure you will all agree that killing people is wrong. God doesnt like it.
The bible mentions those ones, in the book of ...[text shortened]... O THIS, after what religious groups did to them.
It seems very likely.
Bye from Tim 🙂
Rev 22:18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the
prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God
shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: 22:19
And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this
prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and
out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
Bye to Tim.
09 Jul 05
2 edits
Originally posted by frogstompBecause we are the only ones that worry about those types of labels,
OK so where did the idea that atheists , buddhists, polytheists, hindus and any other non-christian automatic be condemned come from? It didn't come from Christ and if not Paul then who.
Also there's something called s of the parents. You do know how Christ viewed little ones.
if you read those scriptures I gave you and just apply them to
everyone you will see that what is important isn't going to be what we
call ourselves. There isn't going to be an okay, all the Baptist stand
there, all the Catholics over here, atheist up front next to the
agnostics. The fact will be that we will each be there, giving an account
of our lives without our buddies, without our labels defining us, our
lives, our words, our actions, our relationship with Christ will be defining
us.
If God told anyone anything, than the Word of God (Jesus) can be
said was involved.
Kelly
09 Jul 05
Originally posted by howardgeeSo what you're saying is that the ideals "all men are created equal" and freedom of religion are more important, or superior to the faith and religious adherence of a people. Thomas Jefferson has it right; god was way off.
“We don’t make a distinction between civilians and non-civilians, innocents and non-innocents, only between Muslims and unbelievers. And the life of an unbeliever has no value, no sanctity.”
http://www.thesun.co.uk/article/0,,2-2005310429,00.html
This is indicative of the deeply held belief of ALL religious people. They believe they are somehow bet ...[text shortened]... hat God does not exist, then there is no chance that everybody will see everyone else as equals.
11 Jul 05
Originally posted by frogstompNo sorry.
Why are you adding things to it? Haven't you read it?
Rev 22:18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the
prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God
shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: 22:19
And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this
prophecy, God shall ...[text shortened]... fe, and
out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
Bye to Tim.
I dont like reading long paragraphs. I can deal with short ones.
Bye from Tim 🙂
11 Jul 05
Originally posted by howardgeeIn the Christian world-view, all people are considered equal in God's eyes. Sure there are believers and unbelievers - but that does not make believers "better" people. All the believer can hope for is that he will become a better person with time.
Until people realise that God does not exist, then there is no chance that everybody will see everyone else as equals.
But I see no reason why the atheist can say the same. To say "all people are equal" would require additional axioms beyond those of atheism.
11 Jul 05
1 edit
Originally posted by ColettiBut I see no reason why the atheist can say the same. To say "all people are equal" would require additional axioms beyond those of atheism.
In the Christian world-view, all people are considered equal in God's eyes. Sure there are believers and unbelievers - but that does not make believers "better" people. All the believer can hope for is that he will become a better pers ...[text shortened]... e equal" would require additional axioms beyond those of atheism.
the atheist is not a blank slate of non-axioms. you seem to claim that the christian 'knows' that all men are inherently equal because the bible says so. well, atheists can pen words too. i just jotted 'all persons are equal' down on my breakfast napkin. satisfied?
despite what you say, there is no reason why anyone who claims to be a christian necessarily must view all persons as inherently equal. the same goes for an atheist. the same goes for anybody.
To say "all people are equal" would require additional axioms beyond those of atheism.
yes, and these axioms are self-evident to anyone with half a brain. the bible simply parrots what right-thinking people already think in this regard, whether they be christian or atheist.