Mankind didn't fall

@ghost-of-a-duke said
Not death, finality. Religions like Christianity serve that primary purpose, hope for a life thereafter.

And sorry, but I do know there is nothing beyond death. I have no uncertainty in this regard. Everything in the universe has a beginning and an end. You are kidding yourself if you think humans are an exception to this rule.

Interesting assertions Ghost. But they defy logic and reason.

How can you state, "...I do know there is nothing beyond death" when you've never been dead?

Then, to counter that, you'll echo the same question back at me, yet you still can't answer the question.

How can anyone know what comes after death? Indeed how?

@rajk999 said
What a load of bull.

Do you think God owes you, that God is obligated to you, because you did some good works?

@rajk999 said
Genuine faith yes. So works is proof that faith is real.

So works is proof that faith is real.
Yes, basically. If one does good works to be seen by men, then they have already received their reward; [Jesus].

@kingdavid403 said
So works is proof that faith is real.
Yes, basically. If one does good works to seen by men, then they have already received their reward; [Jesus].

And only Jesus knows the motive behind the works. Good works can be done without professing faith in God. Chriistians seem not to agree with that point.

@kellyjay said
Do you think God owes you, that God is obligated to you, because you did some good works?

More bull. Something is really wrong with you.

@rajk999 said
And only Jesus knows the motive behind the works. Good works can be done without professing faith in God. Chriistians seem not to agree with that point.

Yes, yes, and, not all Christians.

@rajk999 said
More bull. Something is really wrong with you.

Well, some people do think that way; I've seen it myself.

@ghost-of-a-duke said
Not only dead, but also not possible. Genuine faith will automatically lead to a life of good works.

Exactly right. That's exactly what James meant when he penned the words "faith without works is dead".

James 2:26
For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

So, what is Paul talking about when he uses the word "faith"?
Why does it appear that Paul contradicts James?

Because James and Paul are talking about two different things.

For example: in Romans 3:27,28 Paul is talking about "justification", and not about "good works".

"Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law."

Paul is talking about salvation. James is talking about fruit.

No one can live righteously enough to earn their way to eternal life. It is a gift of God's grace. "Justification" is by faith alone.

"Rewards" are given for faithful service.

It's all just too simple.

@kingdavid403 said
Yes, yes, and, not all Christians.

So a man lived before Christ. he knows nothing about any God, at least no knowledge of the God of Israel. What in your opinion will happen to him on judgment day if he did good works and lived righteously?

My opinion on that is based on Romans 2 where Paul speaks of people who had no law but still did what the law required.

The typical Christian conclusion here is that that man is doomed to eternal torment. What is yours?

@rajk999 said
So a man lived before Christ. he knows nothing about any God, at least no knowledge of the God of Israel. What in your opinion will happen to him on judgment day if he did good works and lived righteously?

My opinion on that is based on Romans 2 where Paul speaks of people who had no law but still did what the law required.

The typical Christian conclusion here is that that man is doomed to eternal torment. What is yours?

That person is saved.

@kingdavid403 said
That person is saved.

Saved means nothing in biblical language. Paul said that a woman is saved in childbearing. Does that mean that all women who bear children will get eternal life? I dont think Paul meant that. Saved is a vague expression.

Im asking is it your opinion that that man will get eternal life or is the man doomed to eternal torment?

@rajk999 said
More bull. Something is really wrong with you.

"Works alone is alive."
"Justified by works."

These are your words; they are not displayed like this in scripture. The very text you quoted does not promote these things, but you believe them true. So I ask you again, since you believe your works justify you before God, do you think God owes you because you did some good works, or anyone else? After all, if they do good works, does that justify them even though they sin?

I am telling you God is not obligated to justify a sinner for any human effort; we can not compel God to do anything; we must come to Him seeking His grace and mercy due to Jesus Christ!

@josephw said
Interesting assertions Ghost. But they defy logic and reason.How can you state, "...I do know there is nothing beyond death" when you've never been dead? Then, to counter that, you'll echo the same question back at me, yet you still can't answer the question.How can anyone know what comes after death? Indeed how?

Your assertion is that some magic happens after we die for which you don't have a scrap of evidence, and this is your stance ~ which you think does NOT "defy logic and reason"?

@kellyjay said
"Works alone is alive."
"Justified by works."

These are your words; they are not displayed like this in scripture. The very text you quoted does not promote these things, but you believe them true. So I ask you again, since you believe your works justify you before God, do you think God owes you because you did some good works, or anyone else? After all, if they do good ...[text shortened]... not compel God to do anything; we must come to Him seeking His grace and mercy due to Jesus Christ?

I'm having a discussion with another poster. I understand your opinion. I disagree. I rather stick with what Jesus said and I have quoted from him. I will stay with that. Your church doctrine is convoluted nonsense.

@rajk999 said
I'm having a discussion with another poster. I understand your opinion. I disagree. I rather stick with what Jesus said and I have quoted from him. I will stay with that. Your church doctrine is convoluted nonsense.

You have shown yourself a liar in this discussion and are unable to back up your claims.

"Works alone is alive"
Justified by works.