Matthew 24

Originally posted by FMF
"If it were not for the Bible, then then each person would be 'free' to speculate on this Creator and come to their own personal conclusion"

Good grief. Have you never met anyone from any other religion?

Originally posted by chaney3
... it seems that I am most definitely trying my best to 'align' a Creator with the God in the bible. For me it's not an easy task at all. I don't quite understand how most poster's on this site are so certain about their beliefs.....and steadfast, with no wiggle room at all it seems. Or their faith is solid? Not sure.

Originally posted by chaney3
I made the effort in the next few sentences to include all religions...and 'all gods', for that matter.

Originally posted by checkbaiter

You are reading into the word of God to fit your belief. It does not say the second man is out of heaven, as if he pre-existed.

" And now, glorify Me with Yourself, Father, with the glory which I had with You before the world was." (John 17:5)

It is saying God formed or created a seed in Mary. Jesus did not pre-exist and then become a sperm in Mary. That is ridiculous and changing the bible.

" And now, glorify Me along with Yourself, Father, with the glory which I had with you before the world was." (John 17:5)

Jesus had to grow and study the scriptures to learn about how he was conceived.

" Father, concerning that which You have given Me, I desire that they also may be with Me where I am, that they may behold My glory, with You have given Me, for You loved Me before the foundation of the world." (John 17:24)

" In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God." (John 1:1)

" And the Word became flesh and tabernacled among us ..." (v.14)

" But when the fullness of the time came, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under law..." (Galatians 4:4)

Originally posted by chaney3

It is still amazing to me that an entire religion is devoted to Jesus Christ, and yet his identity is the cause of much confusion. Who is He? Son of God.....or God? It should seem obvious that 'worshiping' him without knowing who you are worshiping could be considered futile.
For me, the 'Trinity Problem' is something that is a roadblock to my own spiritual growth.
I haven't posted in a while, but wanted to throw in my two cents here.
I'm curious as to how this 'identity crisis' in Jesus, and the Trinity problem can ever be really solved, and why God allowed its birth in the first place.

" Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in Me? The words that I say to you I do not speak from Myself, but the Father who abides in Me does His works.

Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father is in Me; but if not, believe because of the works themselves." (John 14:10,11)

Originally posted by checkbaiter

You are reading into the word of God to fit your belief. It does not say the second man is out of heaven, as if he pre-existed.

" For the bread of God is He who comes down out of heaven and gives life to the world." (John 6:33)

" For I have come down from heaven not to do My own will but the will of Him who sent Me." (John 6:38)

"The Jews therefore murmured concerning Him because He said, I am the bread that came down out of heaven. And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know?

How does He now say, I have come down out of heaven?" (vs. 41,42)

"... Then what if you saw the Son of Man ascending to where He was before?" (v.62)

Originally posted by sonship

You are reading into the word of God to fit your belief. It does not say the second man is out of heaven, as if he pre-existed.

How then could Jesus speak of the glory that He had with the Father before the world was ? In His mighty prayer before His crucifixion He petitioned His Father thus -

[quote] [b] " And now, glorify Me with You ...[text shortened]... God-man is a good description of such a wonderful uncreated God incarnated to be a created man.

Jesus was praying that the glory the Old Testament foretold he would have, and which had been in the mind of God the Father since before the world began, would come into concretion. Trinitarians, however, teach that Jesus was praying about glory he had with God many years before his birth, and they assert that this proves he had access to the mind and memory of his “God nature.” However, if, as a man, Jesus “remembered” being in glory with the Father before the world began, then he would have known he was God in every sense. He would not have thought of himself as a “man” at all. If he knew he was God, he would not and could not have been “tempted in every way just as we are” because nothing he encountered would have been a “real” temptation to him. He would have had no fear and no thought of failure. There is no real sense in which Scripture could actually say he was “made like his brothers in every way” (Heb. 4:17) because he would not have been like us at all. Furthermore, Scripture says that Jesus “grew” in knowledge and wisdom. That would not really be true if Christ had access to a God-nature with infinite knowledge and wisdom.

We believe that John 17:5 is a great example of a verse that demonstrates the need for clear thinking concerning the doctrine of the Trinity. The verse can clearly be interpreted in a way that is honest and biblically sound, and shows that Christ was a man, but was in the foreknowledge of God as God’s plan for the salvation of mankind. It can also be used the way Trinitarians use it: to prove the Trinity. However, when it is used that way it reveals a Christ that we as Christians cannot truly identify with. We do not have a God-nature to help us when we are tempted or are in trouble or lack knowledge or wisdom. The Bible says that Christ can “sympathize with our weakness” because he was “tempted in every way, just as we are” (Heb. 4:15). The thrust of that verse is very straightforward. Because Christ was just like we are, and was tempted in every way that we are, he can sympathize with us. However, if he was not “just as we are,” then he would not be able to sympathize with us. We assert that making Christ a God-man makes it impossible to really identify with him.

We can tell that Jesus was speaking of being in God’s foreknowledge from the immediate context. Just two verses earlier, in John 17:3, Jesus said that the Father was “the only true God.” Jesus could not have prayed that while at the same time thinking he was God too. The proper interpretation of John 17 is simple and biblical. Jesus knew he was the promised Messiah and Son of God, and God had spoken of his glory many centuries earlier. Now, on the eve of his arrest, he prayed to his Father, the “only true God,” and asked for God’s plan to come to pass.

The Apostle John had already told us -

" In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God." (John 1:1)

This again? I will only post the link.

http://www.revisedenglishversion.com/John/chapter1/1

Originally posted by checkbaiter
[b]
How then could Jesus speak of the glory that He had with the Father before the world was ? In His mighty prayer before His crucifixion He petitioned His Father thus -

" And now, glorify Me with Yourself, Father, with the glory which I had with You before the world was." (John 17:5)


Jesus definitely existed in God's foreknowledge bef ...[text shortened]... he prayed to his Father, the “only true God,” and asked for God’s plan to come to pass.[/quote][/b]

Originally posted by sonship

You are reading into the word of God to fit your belief. It does not say the second man is out of heaven, as if he pre-existed.

He said He came down out of heaven.

[b] " For the bread of God is He who comes down out of heaven and gives life to the world." (John 6:33)

When his opponents murmured that He had sai ...[text shortened]... - in heaven. So God sent forth His Son, the second man, out of heaven (1 Cor. 15:47) .[/b]

Originally posted by checkbaiter

" For I have come down from heaven not to do My own will but the will of Him who sent Me." (John 6:38)

"The Jews therefore murmured concerning Him because He said, I am the bread that came down out of heaven. And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know?

How does He now say, I have come down out of heaven?" (vs. 41,42)

"... Then what if you saw the Son of Man ascending to where He was before?" (v.62)

Jesus said that he came from heaven, meaning that He came from God; God was his source. The Jews would not have taken Christ’s words to mean that he “incarnated” or was somehow God. It was a common use of language for them to say that something “came from heaven” if God were its source, and there are a number of verses that show that is true.

James 1:17 says that every good gift is “from above” and “comes down” from God. What James means is clear. God is the Author and source of the good things in our lives. God works behind the scenes to provide what we need. The verse does not mean that the good things in our lives come directly down from heaven. Jesus’ words should be understood the same way we understand James’ words—that God is the source of Jesus Christ, which He was. Christ was God’s plan for the salvation of mankind, and God directly fathered Jesus.

Originally posted by checkbaiter
[b]
The Apostle John had already told us -

" In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God." (John 1:1)

This again? I will only post the link.

http://www.revisedenglishversion.com/John/chapter1/1[/b]

Originally posted by sonship

[b] " For I have come down from heaven not to do My own will but the will of Him who sent Me." (John 6:38)

"The Jews therefore murmured concerning Him because He said, I am the bread that came down out of heaven. And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know?

How does He now say, I have come down out of ...[text shortened]... nd God directly fathered Jesus.

Thanks. That is more like it. I'll comment latter.

Jesus said that he came from heaven, meaning that He came from God; God was his source.

The Jews would not have taken Christ’s words to mean that he “incarnated” or was somehow God.

" And no one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended out of heaven, the Son of Man, who is in heaven." (John 3:13)

"And NO ONE ... has ascended into heaven, but He who DESCENDED out of heaven."

It was a common use of language for them to say that something “came from heaven” if God were its source, and there are a number of verses that show that is true.

James 1:17 says that every good gift is “from above” and “comes down” from God.

What James means is clear. God is the Author and source of the good things in our lives. God works behind the scenes to provide what we need. The verse does not mean that the good things in our lives come directly down from heaven. Jesus’ words should be understood the same way we understand James’ words—that God is the source of Jesus Christ, which He was. Christ was God’s plan for the salvation of mankind, and God directly fathered Jesus.

" Then what if you saw the Son of Man ascending to where He was before ?" (John 6:63)

" And now, glorify Me along with Yourself, Father, with the glory which I had with You before the world was." (John 17:5)

Originally posted by sonship

Jesus said that he came from heaven, meaning that He came from God; God was his source.

But you are saying that Jesus was only CREATED in being conceived in the womb of Mary.

Is there anyone else in the Bible of whom you would say, just by being BORN on earth they [b]"came down from heaven" ?

It is not merely that He was mirac ...[text shortened]... ing with God and being God and becoming flesh. (John 1:1,14)

I must now go for awhile.[/b]

" Then what if you saw the Son of Man ascending to where He was before ?" (John 6:63)

Commentary for: John 3:13


And no one has gone up to heaven, but he who came down from heaven, the Son of Man, who is in heaven.

“And no one.” Jesus did not speak the words recorded in John 3:13 (or any of the words from verse 13 to the end of chapter 3). Jesus did not say he was in heaven while he was standing in Jerusalem speaking to Nicodemus. Jesus stops speaking at the end of verse 12, and that is where the red letters in red-letter Bibles should also stop. Verse 13 is part of the narrative of the Gospel of John, not Jesus speaking. Most of the Gospel of John is the narrative of John. John opens up with narrative, and the majority of chapter 1, and most of the rest of John, is narrative. John chapter 3 opens with narrative (“There was a man of the Pharisees....”, and that narrative continues in verse 13.

Although most people do not realize it, scholars debate what part of John chapter 3 was spoken by Jesus, and at what point the words of Jesus stop and the narration of the Gospel of John restarts. Although the best way to see this debate is by reading the commentaries and articles in theological journals, an easy way to see the debate is by comparing different versions of “red-letter Bibles;” the red letters stop at different places in different Bibles. In the ESV, NASB, and NIV84, Jesus stops speaking (and the red letters stop) at verse 21, but in the NIV (2011 edition), the red letters stop at John 3:15, and John 3:16 is in black letters and is considered part of the narrative. In contrast to those two possibilities, we agree with E. W. Bullinger and assert that Jesus stops speaking in verse 12 and the narrative starts with verse 13. The Companion Bible by Bullinger has notes that make a good case for the fact that Jesus’ speaking ends at verse 12 and John, the narrator, begins with verse 13. In fact, Bullinger lists seven different reasons for Jesus’ talking ending at verse thirteen. Verses 14 and 16 agree with this entirely (see the commentaries on John 3:14 and 3:16).

Bullinger’s seven reasons are:

Because the past tense of the Greek verbs that follow verse twelve indicate completed events.
Because the expression “only begotten Son” is not used by the Lord of himself, but is used by John describing the Lord (John 1:14, 18, 3:16, 18, 1 John 4:9).
Because “in the name of” (John 3:18, using the Greek word en) is not used by the Lord, but by John (John 1:12; 2:23; 1 John 5:13).
Because to “do the truth” occurs elsewhere only in 1 John 1:6.
Because “who is in heaven” (v. 13) points to the fact that the Lord had already ascended at the time John wrote.
Because the word “lifted up” refers both to the sufferings (John 3:14; 8:28; 12:32, 34) and to “the glory which should follow” (John 8:28; 12:32; Acts 2:33; 5:31).
Because the break at verse 13 accords best with the context, as shown by the structure of the section.

Strong and straightforward evidence that Jesus is not speaking after verse 12 comes from just reading the verses in the Greek (and sometimes even the English) and paying attention to the verbs and the content of the verses. For example, verse 13 is very clear: “No one has ascended in to heaven...except the Son of Man.” The verb “ascended” is in the past tense in both Greek and English, and shows us that Jesus had already ascended to heaven when this verse was written. This is confirmed by the last phrase of the verse, which says that Jesus “is” in heaven. The phrase, “which is in heaven,” has all the evidence of being original, and should appear in English Bibles as it does in the King James Version (this point is covered below, under “who is in heaven”.

Orthodox scholars have come up with “explanations” of why they believe this verse says Jesus has ascended into heaven but is still on earth talking to Nicodemus, but they are contrived explanations, invented due to the commentators’ pre-conceived theology. There is no need for anything other than a straightforward reading of this verse to understand it.

The verbs in John 3:14 continue letting us know that Jesus had already ascended to heaven, and was not on earth talking to Nicodemus. Verse 14 says that “just as” Moses “lifted up” the serpent (aorist tense in Greek), even so the Son of Man “was lifted up” (also aorist tense). The tense of the verb “lifted up” is the same for both the serpent of Moses and the Son of Man. Thus, the natural reading of the text is that both the serpent and the Son of Man were lifted up in the past. Of course, because the orthodox teaching is that John 3:14 occurred long before the crucifixion and ascension of Christ, the natural reading of the Greek text is ignored, and the past tense reading of the last verb is made to read in English as if it was future, so most English versions read that the Son of Man “will be” lifted up. As in verse 13, the natural reading of the verbs show that Jesus had already been crucified; “lifted up.”