Matthew 24

Originally posted by Rajk999
He has already said that anyone who does not believe that Jesus is God is not his brother in Christ.

Originally posted by checkbaiter

What am I ignoring?

You think what Jesus is saying makes him God?

Could this have not been a prophecy?

Why do you Trinitarians jump at every word trying to make Jesus God? Why is this such an aggressive part of your doctrine?

The next verses you are about to refer to, I believe and love. I do not make these verses the cause to DISBELIEVE Matthew 23:37 or other passages telling us that Christ is God incarnate.

So let's see your approach.

For there is one God, and one mediator between God and mankind, a man, Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all—the testimony given at the proper time. For this I was appointed a herald and an apostle (I speak the truth, I am not lying), a teacher of the Gentiles in trust and truth.
1Tim 2:5

Jesus has a God.

Jesus is a man.

If Jesus was God, this would have been a wonderful place to say it plainly, but it does not!

What it says instead, Jesus is stated to be a member of the human race, just as the Old Testament prophecies foretold he would be.

" Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her!

HOW OFTEN I ... DESIRED to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you would not." (Matt. 23:37)

Nowhere does the bible say he became a man and then he became God again unless we brutally twist the word of God to suit a biased belief.

Originally posted by sonship

What it says instead, Jesus is stated to be a member of the human race, just as the Old Testament prophecies foretold he would be.

The Bible absolutely agrees with you that Jesus Christ is a member of the human race.
We have no argument against the incarnation of God into the human race.

This MAN, this member of the human race als ...[text shortened]... flesh. (Docetist Gnosticism)

Do not be taken in by any of these forms of extreme twisting.

Originally posted by checkbaiter

I think you have again reached way too far. Matt 23:37...
“Jerusalem, Jerusalem, she who keeps on killing the prophets and stoning the ones who have been sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together in the same way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing.

Jesus is talking about Jerusalem during his ministry.

Yes, granted, he knew they rejected and killed the prophets before him. You somehow have over reached and say he is talking about the old testament.

" Child your sins are forgiven. But some of the scribes were sitting there and reasoning in their hearts,

Why is this man speaking this way? He is blaspheming! Who can forgive sins except One, God?

And immediately Jesus knowing fully in His spirit that they were reasoning this way within themselves, said to them, Why are you reasoning about these things in your hearts?

Which is easier: to say to the paralytic, Your sins are forgiven, or to say; Rise and take up your mat and walk? But that you may know that the Son of Man has authority to forgive sons on earth - He said to the paralytic, To you I say, Rise, take up your mat and go to your house." (Mark 2:5b-11)

This was only a short time before he was arrested. He had been with the Jews about three years already.

How often I wanted to gather your children together in the same way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing.

This does not mean to me that he was speaking he wanted to gather them in the old testament, because he had not been born. He is obviously speaking about the last three years.

Where does it say he is talking about the OT Jews?

"So that upon you may come all the righteous blood shed on the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zachariah, son of Barachiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar." (Matt.23:35)

Originally posted by sonship
[quote] I think you have again reached way too far. Matt 23:37...
[b] “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, she who keeps on killing the prophets and stoning the ones who have been sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together in the same way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing.

Jesus is talking about Jerusalem du ...[text shortened]...

Try reading the verses 35,36,and 37 together.
There's no need for me to "try" again.[/b]

Originally posted by checkbaiter
Did you know that as Ambassadors for Christ you and I can forgive sins?
We have been given this authority on his behalf.
Yet it does not make us God.

Originally posted by FMF
I often forgive people for their transgressions (just as I get forgiven for mine). Is that the sort of thing you mean?

This is from Grace Ministry USA

Twenty Biblical Reasons Why The Doctrine of the Trinity Is Wrong1
1. Here are twenty reasons why the doctrine of the Trinity is unbiblical.
Number one is this:

the old covenant understanding that God is one person. The great creed of Israel was "Here, O Israel, the LORD [Yahweh] our God is one." (Deuteronomy 6:4).
Indeed the Bible also states, "To you it was shown, that you might know that the LORD
[Yahweh] Himself is God; there is none other beside Him." (Deuteronomy 4:35) and "I am the
LORD [Yahweh], and there is no other; There is no God besides Me." (Isaiah 45:5). Yahweh, is
the personal name of God and Yahweh is only one person.
Jesus Christ reiterated this old covenant creed. He said, "The first of all the commandments is:
'Hear, O Israel, the LORD [Yahweh] our God is one." (Mark 12:29).
If the old covenant declared that there is only one God and one person who is God, that person
being Yahweh; and if Jesus Christ affirmed that there is only one person who is God—Yahweh,
we should think long and hard about blindly accepting the false notion that God is three
persons.
2. Reason two:
The Jewish people never imagined that the Messiah would be God. Moses
declared, "The LORD your God will raise up for you a Prophet like me from your midst, from
your brethren. Him you shall hear." (Deuteronomy 18:15)
And God did not contradict Moses, He said, "I will raise up for them a Prophet like you from
among their brethren, and will put My words in His mouth, and He shall speak to them all that I
command Him." (v. 18)
When Jesus asked Peter who he believed Jesus was, "Simon Peter answered and said, 'You are
the Christ, the Son of the living God.'” (Matthew 16:16). And Jesus did not reprove Peter saying
"No, you've got it wrong. I'm God the Son." No, he said, "Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for
flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven." (Matthew
16:17).
1
“If Paganism was conquered by Christianity, it is equally true that Christianity was corrupted by Paganism. The
pure deism [belief in one person who is God] of the first Christians . . . was changed by the church of Rome, into
the incomprehensible dogma of the Trinity. Many of the pagan tenets, invented by Egyptians and idealized by
Plato, were retained as being worthy of belief.” (Edward Gibbons, from the preface to History of Christianity)
Finally, after the resurrection and ascension of Christ, this is what Peter preached about Christ:
"Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a Man attested by God to you by miracles,
wonders, and signs which God did through Him in your midst, as you yourselves also know—"
(Acts 2:22). Jesus is a "Man" through whom God did wonders and signs. Read also Acts 10:38.
God was with Jesus, but Jesus, the Messiah, was not and is not God.
3. Reason number 3: John 1:1-3
Many trinitarians will argue that the first three verses of the gospel of John provide strong
proof that Jesus is God. A footnote on John 1:1, in The MacArthur Study Bible (New King James
Version) states,
“Before the universe began, the Second Person of the Trinity always existed . . . Because of
John’s theme that Jesus Christ is the eternal Son of God, the Second Person of the Trinity, he
did not include a genealogy as Matthew and Luke did.”
Yet nowhere in the gospel of John does he ever state that his theme is to show that Jesus Christ
is the eternal Son of God. All John says is that his gospel was written “that you may believe that
Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in His name (John
20:31).” So what does John 1:1-3, say and what does it mean? Here are the verses in question.
“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in
the beginning with God. All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made
that was made.”
The manner in which these three verses are translated from the Greek lead many Christians to
hear in their minds something like this:
“In the beginning was the Son of God, and the Son of God was with God, and the Son of God
was God. The Son was in the beginning with God.”
In fact, here is how The Good News Bible translates John 1:1-3.
“Before anything else existed, there was Christ, with God. He has always been alive and is
himself God. He created everything there is. Nothing exists that he did not make.”
But is this really what the Greek text of John 1:1-3, is telling us? First of all, let’s understand
what the word “Word” means. “Word” is a translation of the Greek word logos, and it means a
plan, purpose, saying, expression of thought, a message, or an intention. Here are some
examples of how logos is used in the New Testament.
Matthew 7:8, “saying”; 8:8, “word”; Mark 1:45, “matter”; Luke 1:4, “things”; 16:2, “account”;
Acts 8:21, “matter” or “ministry”; 1 Corinthians 1:18, “preaching”; Colossians 4:6, “speech”
The Greek word logos was used to correspond to the Old Testament Hebrew word davar. Here
are some examples of how davar is translated.
“I have hoped in Your word *i.e. wisdom, plan, promises+.” (Psalm 119:74)
“Your word is a lamp to my feet and a light to my path.” (vs. 105)
“So shall My word be that goes from My mouth; it shall not return to Me void, but it shall
accomplish
what I please, and it shall prosper in the thing for which I sent it.” (Isaiah 55:11)
In this last example from Isaiah, we are to understand God’s “word” as His plan or purpose. So
there is no good reason for the word logos to refer to a preexisting Son of God. In fact, nowhere
in the entire Bible can you find any Hebrew or Greek word for “word” that implies another
preexisting person in the Godhead.
Also in John 1:2, 3, the words “He” and “Him” are impersonal pronouns in the Greek and
therefore should be translated as “it” when referring to logos. Every English Bible before the
King James Version of 1611 translated the pronouns this way. The following is an example.
“In the beginning was the word, and the word was with God: and the word was God. The same
was in the beginning with God. All things were made by it, and without it nothing was made
that was made.” *my emphasis]
Now, what does it mean that the “word” was “with God” and the “word was God”? The Greek
preposition pros translated “with” means to be intimately associated with or together with and
yet distinct and separate. My wife can be with me but she is not me. In the same way, God’s
word was with Him but it was not Him personally. In the Old Testament we learn that “wisdom”
was also with God.
“Then I *wisdom] was beside [with] Him as a master craftsman.” (Proverbs 8:30)
No trinitarian will ever say that because wisdom was with God that wisdom is now another
person within the Godhead (making four persons who are God!). Everyone understands that
when we read “I *wisdom+ was beside God” what we have is a figure of speech called
personification. In the same way in John 1:1, God’s word was with Him but it was not another
person. Concerning the meaning of the phrase “the word was God” I can do no better than to
quote the comments of scholar William Barclay,“In the AV *King James Version+ John 1:1 reads:
‘In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.’ For long
the newer translations continued this rendering with the exception of Moffet and Goodspeed, who
both render: “the Word was divine.’ . . . In a case like this we cannot do other than go to the Greek,
which is theos en ho logos. Ho is the definite article, the, and it can be seen that there is a definite article
with logos, but not with theos. When in Greek two nouns are joined by the verb to be and when both
have the definite article, then the one is fully identified with the other; but when one of them
is without the article, it becomes more an adjective than a noun, and describes rather the class or
sphere to which the other belongs.
An illustration from English will make this clear. If I say, ‘The preacher is the man,’ I use the definite
article before both preacher and man, and I thereby identify the preacher with some quite
definite individual man whom I have in mind.
But if I say, ‘The preacher is man,’ I have omitted the definite article before man, and what I mean
is that the preacher must be classified as a man, he is in the sphere of manhood, he is a human
being.
“John has no definite article before theos, God. The logos therefore, is not identified as God or with
God; the word theos has become adjectival and describes the sphere to which the logos belongs.
We would therefore, have to say that this means that the logos belongs to the same sphere as God;
without being identified as God. Here the NEB [New English Bible] finds the perfect translation
“What God was, the Word was.
“This passage then does not identify the logos and God; it does not say that Jesus was God, nor does
it call him God . . . “
In other words, when we read the phrase “the word was God” the original intent of the Greek
text was to convey the idea that the “word” was fully representative of God. The “word” was
and is a revelation of God’s heart and character. If we understand God’s word we know what
God is like. The logos fully expresses God’s purpose and mind. Therefore you could very
accurately paraphrase John 1:1-3, like this,
“In the beginning God had a creative and redemptive plan. And this plan or purpose revealed
His heart and was fully representative of all that God is. All things were made through this plan
and without this divine plan nothing was made.”
With all of this in mind John 1:14, reveals a wonderful truth.
“And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory of the
only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.”

The word, the logos, God’s plan, His purpose, became flesh and dwelt among us. With the
coming into existence of Jesus Christ at his conception and birth, the full plan and heart of God
was expressed as a human being.
Jesus Christ was full of divine grace and truth. What became flesh in John 1:14, was not a preexistent or eternally begotten Son of God. What became flesh was God’s full plan of salvation revealed in the Man, Jesus Christ.
A plan can take “flesh” when it is carried out or acted upon. When an architect’s plan actually
becomes a building it becomes “flesh.” In the same manner God’s plan became literal flesh in
Jesus Christ who fully revealed God’s will. Hebrews 1:1, declares,
“God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the father’s by the
prophets, has in these last days spoken to us [revealing His word, (logos)] by His Son”
The Son of God, Jesus Christ, is not a preexistent being. He is not the second person in the
Godhead. He is simply and uniquely the Son of God who fully reveals God to us.

Originally posted by checkbaiter

Did you know that as Ambassadors for Christ you and I can forgive sins?
We have been given this authority on his behalf.
Yet it does not make us God.

" So on contrary you [the church in Corinth] should rather forgive and comfort him, lest perhaps such a one be swallowed up with excessive sorrow. (v.7)

But whom you forgive anything, I also forgive; for also what I have forgiven, if I have forgiven anything, it is for your sake in the person of Christ;

That we may not be taken advantage of by Satan, for we are not ignorant of his schemes." (See 2 Cor. 7 - 11)

Originally posted by sonship

Did you know that as Ambassadors for Christ you and I can forgive sins?
We have been given this authority on his behalf.
Yet it does not make us God.

As members of the practical church life Christians can forgive one another participants for fellowship.

But in terms of eternal forgiveness only God can do that.

Here in Corinthi ...[text shortened]... y forgive and reinstate some backslidden brother or sister into communion with the congregation.

God in Christ could forgive man because -

" .. God in Christ was reconciling the world to Himself, not accounting their offenses to them ..." (2 Cor. 5:19)

" For in Him was all the fullness pleased to dwell." (Col. 1:19)

"For in Him DWELLS all the fullness of the Godhead bodily." (Col. 29)

Originally posted by checkbaiter
No, we forgive on God's behalf. Just as an Ambassador can represent the President or his country.