Misc. Hell Responses

Originally posted by lemon lime
Okay, so I take it this means your answer to my question is number 2. See, that wasn't so hard...

The issue being debated is the incoherence [and I would say ghastliness] of sonship's stated ideology, and not really whether either of us actually believes in it. Actually I think he is sincere and he does believe in it ~ but, quite clearly I don't, and I have never made any secret of it, so I don't really see how you are making any valid point about what is being discussed here.

Originally posted by lemon lime
Have you decided whether or not to take the subject seriously enough to stop playing childish games with it?

Instead of going over each and every little thing you disagree with and find offensive with Christian belief, why not just simply tell us what you do agree with? I suspect the list of what you [b]do find agreeable among doctrinal beliefs will be much shorter than everything else that offends you.[/b]

Why do you call the teaching of eternal suffering a "little thing"? I don't think it is a little thing, I think it is the single most destructive anti-Christ message there is and I have stated my reasons for why I think this over and over and over again.

I reject the notion that eternal suffering is a "christian teaching", instead I focus heavily of the Gospel and the everlasting mercy of a loving God who has revealed himself as Christ Jesus.

I reject your trollist claims that I "go over each and every every little thing I disagree with Christian belief" - please show me this extensive list you must have complied of these things?

You on the other hand stand for nothing. Zip. Like many of the other Christians here, you lack the courage to state your position on the eternal suffering teaching, preferring instead to take issue with those (like me) who relentlessly stand up in this forum and proclaim the gross error and misrepresentation of the God of ultimate mercy, compassion, justice and truth.

Your petty engagement on this level is boring - as I see you, you stand for nothing Lemon Lime; you are a forum partisan junkie who's pleasure is derived from being on someone side rather than contending for the truth.

Originally posted by lemon lime
So I take this to mean you believe the warning (of hell) is only a threat, in order to modify the behavior of people. I personally believe such a threat would drive people away rather than draw them in, but maybe I only believe this because I'm not particularly influenced by threats... I think it's a good idea to heed warnings, but it's also good to not be ruled by fear.

If the threat of torture is not a threat designed to make people believe in Jesus, and if it is not believable to those who do not believe in Jesus, and if the only kind of "love" that such a ghastly warning might elicit is surely a perverted kind, and if you reject the notion that it is "revenge" (as you did in an earlier post), and if the "justice" of such punishment cannot be argued or justified by those who believe in it, then what would be the purpose of creating such hideous wrathful violence and visiting it upon human beings and keeping it going forever? It simply doesn't make any sense.

Originally posted by FMF
[b]It's statements like this that work to undercut your arguments and undermine your own credibility. First you call the natural consequences of rejecting God 'revenge', then you presume this unique interpretation of yours is something I've only believed for a few days.

It is sonship who has characterized his God figure's action as "revenge". I am simply ...[text shortened]... why such a demented kind of "revenge" represents something morally sound and "perfect justice"?[/b]

I didn't call it "revenge" or "perfect justice", so how do you justify putting words in my mouth? This is a prime example of how most of your arguments are basically fabrications founded mostly on your own thoughts and imagination.

You're trying to make too much out of my recently learning what "the worm does not die" means, and it seems you're trying to suggest something about this without coming right out and saying so. But this doesn't actually matter, because ultimately the one and only argument you and dive have to offer is how it makes you feel... you don't like it, it offends you, and that's all it really means to either one of you.

Originally posted by lemon lime
I didn't call it "revenge" or "perfect justice", so how do you justify putting words in my mouth? This is a prime example of how most of your arguments are basically fabrications founded mostly on your own thoughts and imagination.

This is sonship's thread and it is his ideology that is being discussed. Do you agree with his interpretations and assertions or disagree with them. Even if a key part of your belief system is less than two weeks old, you should still feel free to state what you believe unequivocally. If you want to discuss your own "eternal torture" ideology, if it is different from sonship's why not just state what it is and how it differs from his.

Originally posted by lemon lime
You're trying to make too much out of my recently learning what "the worm does not die" means, and it seems you're trying to suggest something about this without coming right out and saying so..

I am not hiding anything: I think you cut a rather ludicrous figure as a proponent of a specific spiritual philosophy when after 40 years of being a Christian who professed that you "did not know" if there was eternal torture or not, could just a few days ago suddenly act as if you now believe in eternal torture because someone on a message board like this told you what they happened to think the "worm" symbolized. Do you really think I have not been making my estimation of your epiphany clear? The whole debate about what you actually believe ~ and your contribution to it is hamstrung by you "trying to suggest something about [what your belief actually is] without coming right out and saying so".

Originally posted by divegeester
Why do you call the teaching of eternal suffering a "little thing"? I don't think it is a little thing, I think it is the single most destructive anti-Christ message there is and I have stated my reasons for why I think this over and over and over again.

I reject the notion that eternal suffering is a "christian teaching", instead I focus heavily o ...[text shortened]... unkie who's pleasure is derived from being on someone side rather than contending for the truth.

It didn't happen over night. It's actually taken me a very long time to accept everything in the Bible as being true.

And here is something else I believe is true... no one in heaven is going to feel God is ghastly or revolting or unfair. No one in heaven is going to be offended by anything God has done. You on the other hand (IF I can believe everything you've said) seem to believe that if you are in heaven and your loved one is in hell, you will somehow be duty bound to feel just awful about it. And you will undoubtedly be wringing your hands in self righteous distress, weeping and gnashing your teeth over the suffering your loved one must endure for rejecting God.

Well guess what? I have some good news for you and some bad news. The good news is you won't be feeling any anguish in heaven. The bad news is if you do feel distressed, then you're probably not in heaven... you and you're loved one are probably in the same place.

There, feel better now?

Originally posted by lemon lime
But this doesn't actually matter, because ultimately the one and only argument you and dive have to offer is how it makes you feel... you don't like it, it offends you, and that's all it really means to either one of you.

As I have said, being a non-Christian and therefore not having anything invested in what Christian ideologues and fanatics profess to believe, I am not "offended" by sonship's superstition.

As I stated earlier on this thread, my interest is in the arguments and justifications being put forward in an attempt to legitimatize the supposed actions of a torturer God figure.

My interest has nothing to do with being "offended". I am interested in what this incoherent aspect of Christian ideology means for the rest of the ideology; whether someone who propagates such morally incoherent nonsense can speak with any kind of credibility about any form of "justice" in any other context; whether any obedience or worship resulting from this attempted psychological coercion can be called "love" without totally distorting the meaning of the word.

And finally, whether there is any semblance of logic in the idea that this "eternal torture" punishment and revenge has one whit of deterrence effect on those that don't believe it ~ the very people it is supposedly supposed to deter [from their non-belief!!].

Not one of these stated interests has anything to do with being "offended". Suggesting that all that is going on here is me being "offended" is just clumsy evasion on your part, and it is a deflection that sonship has already used..

Originally posted by lemon lime

And here is something else I believe is true... no one in heaven is going to feel God is ghastly or revolting or unfair. No one in heaven is going to be offended by anything God has done. You on the other hand (IF I can believe everything you've said) seem to believe that if you are in heaven and your loved one is in hell, you will somehow be duty bound to feel just awful about it. And you will undoubtedly be wringing your hands in self righteous distress, weeping and gnashing your teeth over the suffering your loved one must endure for rejecting God.

You didn't make much sense with your half-baked take on this aspect of your Christian ideology the last time you tried to propagate it here Thread 161549 on page 28 onwards.

Originally posted by lemon lime
It didn't happen over night. It's actually taken me a very long time to accept everything in the Bible as being true.

Was the thing about the "worm" [thirteen days ago] the last piece of "truth" to fall into place or are there still things in the Bible that you do not accept as being "true"?

Originally posted by lemon lime
There, feel better now?

Reassurance on how I'll feel in eternity from Lemon Lime.

😵

Originally posted by FMF
Was the thing about the "worm" [thirteen days ago] the last piece of "truth" to fall into place or are there still things in the Bible that you do not accept as being "true"?

I don't know how it is you can be so easily befuddled by the infamous 'worm' incidence. 🙄

It seems you are either trying to make a mountain out of a very small mole hill 😕 or you're genuinely befuddled by this 😛 Or (there always seems to be a third possibility) maybe you're a classic paranoid 😲 , and you're simply not inclined to believe anything coming from someone you disagree with 😠 ... I'll bet that's it. 😵

This is all so 😴 very fascinating...🙂

Originally posted by lemon lime
It didn't happen over night. It's actually taken me a very long time to accept everything in the Bible as being true.

So your recent final revelation about the worm, or whatever it was, has finally convinced you that the teaching on eternal suffering is correct?

Originally posted by lemon lime
No one in heaven is going to be offended by anything God has done. You on the other hand (IF I can believe everything you've said) seem to believe that if you are in heaven and your loved one is in hell, you will somehow be duty bound to feel just awful about it. And you will undoubtedly be wringing your hands in self righteous distress, weeping and gnash ...[text shortened]... in heaven... you and you're loved one are probably in the same place.

There, feel better now?

Nothing of the sort; the teaching on eternal suffering is gross error - so whatever "heaven" looks like, there will be an adjacent room when billions of people are tortured by God for eternity for not making the cut.

Originally posted by lemon lime
It didn't happen over night. It's actually taken me a very long time to accept everything in the Bible as being true.

And here is something else I believe is true... no one in heaven is going to feel God is ghastly or revolting or unfair. No one in heaven is going to be offended by anything God has done. You on the other hand (IF I can believe everythi ...[text shortened]... in heaven... you and you're loved one are probably in the same place.

There, feel better now?

This post really doesn't mean anything nor does it reveal what you do or don't believe regarding the teaching of eternal torture. Your attempt at deflection from this point by bring up the "no distress over loved ones" topic..again...won't cover up the fact that despite your blustering and huff-puffing, you don't really know what you believe, do you?