Spirituality
11 May 10
15 Jul 10
1 edit
Originally posted by AgergIt's not my job to make you believe. That wasn't the intent. The first story was a feel good story. Sure I strongly believe in prayer and I believe prayer does work in my life. The arguing began with others - not me. I'm just here giving my opinions on the matter.
[b]lol - your first thought was this
"Maybe you could say a little prayer and ask God to give me guidance in winning the lottery this weekend. I promise to give you 10%, and also 10% of my winnings to a charity of your choice."
Now you want say you give to charity. The statement above indicated you would give to charity after winning the lottery. I was ld it be an inconvenience for your god to do this? Does it instead prefer an ugly world??
No offense, but I have seen no argument by you or anyone else to make me believe I have made the wrong choice by having faith. This goes both ways as well.
Edit: Not sure what happpened there - my quote didn't make it and it ended up in bold..This was reply to Agerg (I think that was the screen name).
15 Jul 10
3 edits
Originally posted by gtbiking4lifeCheck for an extra [ b] (usually occurs next to another - at the beginning of the "quoted post" window) without corresponding [ /b]
It's not my job to make you believe. That wasn't the intent. The first story was a feel good story. Sure I strongly believe in prayer and I believe prayer does work in my life. The arguing began with others - not me. I'm just here giving my opinions on the matter.
No offense, but I have seen no argument by you or anyone else to make me believe I ha make it and it ended up in bold..This was reply to Agerg (I think that was the screen name).
Anyway...you still didn't answer my question; and an assertion that the world will be a better place, with a cancer cure probably just round the corner if we all followed Jesus deserves to be questioned! (though I acknowledge inserting "belief in God" into your premise since Jesus the mortal (ie: not Son of God) is feasible I suppose)
I actually don't think a world where everybody behaves as it is alleged some Jesus character did would be a better place...for one thing there'd be a lot of pent up rage frothing inside us, as humans by virtue (I assert) of our evolutionary construct are primed to deliver reprisals to those who wrong us or members of our groups as a deterrent to doing it again. Infact such a "nice" system you propose would be inherently unstable since it only takes one person to exploit the "good nature" of everyone else to screw things up.
Secondly though greed is seldom put forward as a virtue amongst humans, it drives innovation & competition to produce the technologies and luxuries surpassing those which came before (so people will back them/line their pockets) and make life comfortable for lucky people like me who have access to them. I wouldn't like to live in the world my 2000 year old ancestors lived in. Furthermore, I'm more productive and better motivated if I'm well fed; sure I could give all my money to charity...but my quality of life would be worse for it. Not a better world for me! (much better is I give at the rate I do currently (not zero))
15 Jul 10
Originally posted by gtbiking4lifeBut would you concede that your belief that prayer works is not based on a scientific analysis of the results of prayer. ie you believe it works because of feel good stories not because you have any actual evidence that it works.
No offense, but I have seen no argument by you or anyone else to make me believe I have made the wrong choice by having faith. This goes both ways as well.
Would you also concede that if you believed in flipping coins you would have just as much evidence for it working as you do for prayer?
15 Jul 10
The trick with either coins or prayers, is that when it doesn't work, you forget about it. When it works then you make a good story out of it.
If prayer works, then why didn't the Vatican State win the World Championships in fotball in SouthAfrica? Answer: Beause it doesn't work.
15 Jul 10
Originally posted by FabianFnasThe trick gtbiking4life used, was to claim that prayer always works, but that the result is not necessarily what was requested in the prayer, but instead a benefit to the person praying or the person prayed for. In some cases those benefits would not be visible to everyone.
The trick with either coins or prayers, is that when it doesn't work, you forget about it. When it works then you make a good story out of it.
So now the problem is to show that those who pray are in some way better off than if they hadn't prayed. Not an easy challenge. I guess we would be part way there if we could show that those who pray are better off than those who don't, but I don't know what measuring stick you would use.
Of course gtbiking4life cannot show the above it which is why he has to stick to feel good stories.
15 Jul 10
Originally posted by twhiteheadSo his trick is to pray for anything and he get's what is right for him? And if he feels it's not the right for him, he have faith that it is anyway, because "god knows best".
The trick gtbiking4life used, was to claim that prayer always works, but that the result is not necessarily what was requested in the prayer, but instead a benefit to the person praying or the person prayed for. In some cases those benefits would not be visible to everyone.
So now the problem is to show that those who pray are in some way better off th ...[text shortened]... rse gtbiking4life cannot show the above it which is why he has to stick to feel good stories.
I have proposed the following experiment for testing the reliability of prayers:
He, a christian who belives in prayers, and I, who believe in parashutes. We sit in an airplane some 10000 ft above the ground. I have a parashute, he have his prayers. We jump off and reunite at the ground level. Ho has the most probability to tell the other that "I was right!"?
Well, perhaps god listened and thought: "Better that the lunatic fall down and be cruched on the ground anyway". Because "god knows best".
15 Jul 10
Originally posted by FabianFnasCorrect.
So his trick is to pray for anything and he get's what is right for him? And if he feels it's not the right for him, he have faith that it is anyway, because "god knows best".
I have proposed the following experiment for testing the reliability of prayers:
He, a christian who belives in prayers, and I, who believe in parashutes. We sit in an airplane some 10000 ft above the ground. I have a parashute, he have his prayers. We jump off and reunite at the ground level. Ho has the most probability to tell the other that "I was right!"?
He has already thought of that one. He claims that he believes that a Christian must do some of the work and not rely entirely on prayer. So he would put on a parachute and pray as well. Then if your parachute fails to open, its because you didn't pray. If his parachute fails to open, its what God thought was best for him.
15 Jul 10
1 edit
Originally posted by twhiteheadAnd this is why prayers relies on religion and the faith that religion works, and the function of parashutes relies of science and the faith that science works. And never meet the religion and science.
Correct.
I have proposed the following experiment for testing the reliability of prayers:
He, a christian who belives in prayers, and I, who believe in parashutes. We sit in an airplane some 10000 ft above the ground. I have a parashute, he have his prayers. We jump off and reunite at the ground level. Ho has the most probability to tell the other cause you didn't pray. If his parachute fails to open, its what God thought was best for him.
There are no ways to prove that prayers work. But there are ways to prove that parashutes work.
15 Jul 10
1 edit
Originally posted by twhitehead[/b]Unfortunately any "failure" in prayer would have some kind of disclaimer thought up.
Correct.
[b]I have proposed the following experiment for testing the reliability of prayers:
He, a christian who belives in prayers, and I, who believe in parashutes. We sit in an airplane some 10000 ft above the ground. I have a parashute, he have his prayers. We jump off and reunite at the ground level. Ho has the most probability to tell the other cause you didn't pray. If his parachute fails to open, its what God thought was best for him.
15 Jul 10
Originally posted by FabianFnasOne can prove however that prayers have effects - including beneficial effects. For example people who pray are usually comforted by prayer.
There are no ways to prove that prayers work.
But its not always positive. I believe some studies showed that in some cases, sick people who knew they were being prayed for (or thought they were) did not do so well as those who did not. I think one explanation put forward was that their worry was increased by the knowledge that they were so sick that it warranted prayer.
15 Jul 10
Originally posted by gtbiking4lifeNo offense, but I have seen no argument by you or anyone else to make me believe I have made the wrong choice by having faith.
It's not my job to make you believe. That wasn't the intent. The first story was a feel good story. Sure I strongly believe in prayer and I believe prayer does work in my life. The arguing began with others - not me. I'm just here giving my opinions on the matter.
No offense, but I have seen no argument by you or anyone else to make me believe I ha ...[text shortened]... make it and it ended up in bold..This was reply to Agerg (I think that was the screen name).
No one has presented such a case, becasue that's not the issue we're debating.
You claimed in an earlier post -
I have been praying now for 20 years and can say with confidence, there has been a 100% my prayers have been answered for what was best for my family.
If that is the case, you seem to have a direct contact with God, and he answers your wishes everytime. Why don't you pray for something that would benefit all of humanity??
Cure for cancer, HIV, Parkinsons Disease, Huntingtons disease or anyone you decide. Surely that would be a good thing?
15 Jul 10
2 edits
Originally posted by gtbiking4lifeSorry for the diversion but there is a bug in the forums where if you reply to a post which has a combination of bold and non-bold texts, it can sometimes have the bold left on because the bold close tag has been truncated out (effectively leaving just a bold open tag which will make your post bold as well).
Edit: Not sure what happpened there - my quote didn't make it and it ended up in bold..This was reply to Agerg (I think that was the screen name).
This can be resolved by putting a [ /b] (without space) at the beginning of your post.
EDIT: Russ, sort this out! This bug has been here for ages.
15 Jul 10
Originally posted by twhiteheadI've never denied that there is a placebo effect in work, also the lesser known nocebo effect. If they feel good about it, please continue.
One can prove however that prayers have effects - including beneficial effects. For example people who pray are usually comforted by prayer.
But its not always positive. I believe some studies showed that in some cases, sick people who knew they were being prayed for (or thought they were) did not do so well as those who did not. I think one explanation ...[text shortened]... that their worry was increased by the knowledge that they were so sick that it warranted prayer.
But don't think, even for a minute, that you don't hve your own responsability. Like go to the doctor when you're ill, learn before the exam, etc.
15 Jul 10
Originally posted by twhiteheadJust so I know what do you think you should see if prayer works?
But would you concede that your belief that prayer works is not based on a scientific analysis of the results of prayer. ie you believe it works because of feel good stories not because you have any actual evidence that it works.
Would you also concede that if you believed in flipping coins you would have just as much evidence for it working as you do for prayer?
Kelly
15 Jul 10
Originally posted by KellyJay1. If prayers are responded to with the results requested for then it would be obvious ie the results will be obtained.
Just so I know what do you think you should see if prayer works?
Kelly
2. If however prayers are responded to by not giving the result requested but rather doing whats best for the person praying or prayed for, then I really cant say what to expect, as 'what is best' seems not to be defined in any meaningful or measurable way.
2.a. If 'what is best' is defined as improved health or wealth, then clearly those are measurable (and what I would expect to see) - and what the feel good stories given to substantiate the belief were supposedly demonstrating.
But if it is only defined that way when suitable (ie when the result was positive) then there is a problem.
Finally, I don't know how one would distinguish the result of prayer from God doing whats best for you even when you haven't prayed.
Ultimately, I would expect to see a fairly significant difference in something, anything, between those who pray and those who don't, or those who pray to the Christian God as opposed to those who pray to Allah.