Mississippi passes religious 'Freedom' bill:

Originally posted by FMF
I know why you want to dodge the question. Citing some atheists not being uncomfortable with homosexuality does not provide any evidence that supports your stance at all. What atheists think about homosexuals probably runs counter to what you think about them. It's peculiar that you mentioned it. Dodge it by all means.

I'm not dodging anything but your endless questions. You don't like the answers so you come back with more questions... at some point that is why people tend to ignore you.

Originally posted by checkbaiter
I'm not dodging anything but your endless questions. You don't like the answers so you come back with more questions... at some point that is why people tend to ignore you.

You seem to think citing the fact that there are atheists who are uncomfortable with homosexuality provides evidence that supports your stance but it seems to me that it does the opposite.

I don't think it's any surprise that you are not addressing the point and suggesting, instead, that you have already answered it.

I see your mention of what some atheists think as being a debating error on your part. But now you are dealing with it by ignoring it rather than tackling it head on.

Originally posted by FMF
You seem to think citing the fact that there are atheists who are uncomfortable with homosexuality provides evidence that supports your stance but it seems to me that it does the opposite.

I don't think it's any surprise that you are not addressing the point and suggesting, instead, that you have already answered it.

I see your mention of what some athei ...[text shortened]... or on your part. But now you are dealing with it by ignoring it rather than tackling it head on.

I worked with many atheists that were disgusted with gays. You can believe what you want, we are at an impasse. Goodnight

Originally posted by checkbaiter
I worked with many atheists that were disgusted with gays. You can believe what you want, we are at an impasse. Goodnight

You're missing the point. I haven't said that there are not atheists who are disgusted with gays. I believe you. Sexual orientation can and does make emotions run high in some people ~ hence the disgust, hate, fear, hostility, condemnation.

Social taboos can be strong and persistent, and they have a long history. Hostility to 'the other' is merely an aspect of the human condition ~ it does not necessarily justify institutionalized condemnation and discrimination.

On the other hand, your "disgust" for homosexuality is rooted in metaphysical notions and your superstitions (I know you won't condone my use of the word, but it expresses my honest analysis of the things you believe to be true about the reality we both live in) and is about supernatural beings and demons and "demonic influence" and Satan.

Citing the fact that you "worked with many atheists that were disgusted with gays", while I have no reason to not believe you, [1] does not strengthen the case you seek to make, [2] it has a whiff of argumentum ad populum, and [3] it seems to lend credence to the fact that there are heterosexuals and there are homosexuals (as opposed to your contention that there are only heterosexuals) and that in many instances the former do not like the sexual orientation of the latter and it has nothing whatsoever to do with divine beings and the supernatural.

This hostility to homosexuality is, instead - for the atheists you mention - about social conventions and a long history of prejudice, bullying and fear - or whatever terminology those who are "disgusted" with gays choose to use.

Originally posted by KellyJay
Make me do something I don't want too, we have crossed a line.
If you can refuse for no shirt, no shoes, no service you can refuse for other things too.

Should you be able [legally] to refuse to serve a black man?

Or will you admit that you should have to suck it up and "do something you don't want to" in this case?

Originally posted by BigDoggProblem
Should you be able [legally] to refuse to serve a black man?

Or will you admit that you should have to suck it up and "do something you don't want to" in this case?

The case I'm making is not that we or anyone can refuse serve, but that they cannot be
forced to be a part of something they don't want to be a part of. If you bake cakes and
anyone walks in to buy one, you sell them the cake; however, if they want you to take
your talent and design a special one than no you should not have too.

Originally posted by checkbaiter
Certainly! I have ungodly thoughts, but I refuse them. I control my mind, I don't let feelings and desires control me.

Did you choose to have these "ungodly thoughts"? If so, why? If not, why did God distribute the particular "ungodly thought" of homosexuality homogeneously across mankind?

Originally posted by KellyJay
The case I'm making is not that we or anyone can refuse serve, but that they cannot be
forced to be a part of something they don't want to be a part of. If you bake cakes and
anyone walks in to buy one, you sell them the cake; however, if they want you to take
your talent and design a special one than no you should not have too.

What if a business owner doesn't want "to be part of" a mixed-race environment?

Originally posted by KellyJay
The case I'm making is not that we or anyone can refuse serve, but that they cannot be
forced to be a part of something they don't want to be a part of. If you bake cakes and
anyone walks in to buy one, you sell them the cake; however, if they want you to take
your talent and design a special one than no you should not have too.

So if you are a designer of custom wedding cakes, then you are saying it is well within your rights to refuse to make any such cakes that feature models of black couples on the top of the cake? (assuming your religious beliefs are that marriage is only for white people).

Originally posted by Ghost of a Duke
I wholeheartedly encourage you sir, to abandon your beliefs.

Ha! and I wholeheartedly encourage you to adopt my beliefs!

Originally posted by checkbaiter
I'm not dodging anything but your endless questions. You don't like the answers so you come back with more questions... at some point that is why people tend to ignore you.

he is a rather tedious fellow one must admit and its probably better to kick him into touch because if we give these incessant trolls a platform they will never change their behaviour.

Originally posted by KazetNagorra
What if a business owner doesn't want "to be part of" a mixed-race environment?

Then I guess they would not feel welcome at my family's reunions.

Originally posted by KazetNagorra
What if a business owner doesn't want "to be part of" a mixed-race environment?

I'm fine if everyone is treated the same way, if we cannot pray in school events due to the
offended then we need to hold that standard for everyone or none. My example for the
cake would hold true, a cake off the shelf all people could pick up, but he does not want
to take his time to do something special I don't care if he hate red heads, blue eyes, or
any other reason if we honor one's offended feelings we honor them all. The line is
where everyone can except the same treatment which would be what is on the shelf not
what has to have to specially crafted.

Originally posted by KellyJay
Then I guess they would not feel welcome at my family's reunions.

I don't think KazetNagorra was asking you to wave your family's mixed-race" credentials in the air, nor was he suggesting that you had racist beliefs and that you needed to prove otherwise. You don't have to cast yourself as the "business owner" in KazetNagorra's question, and then sidestep it as being irrelevant to you personally. His question was: 'What if a business owner doesn't want "to be part of" a mixed-race environment?'

Originally posted by KellyJay
I'm fine if everyone is treated the same way, if we cannot pray in school events due to the
offended then we need to hold that standard for everyone or none. My example for the
cake would hold true, a cake off the shelf all people could pick up, but he does not want
to take his time to do something special I don't care if he hate red heads, blue eyes, or ...[text shortened]... e same treatment which would be what is on the shelf not
what has to have to specially crafted.

No, that will not fly.

The standard is that you don't get to impose your religion on other people.

If your business offers a product or service and you refuse to provide that to
particular people because 'your religion doesn't like them' then you are imposing
your religion [or it's taboos] onto those people.

The people who want to introduce prayers and praying into school events are
imposing their religious beliefs onto those who don't hold them [and is most
definitely used to ostracise those of different faiths or none].
And the people who want to refuse normally available services to gay people
are also imposing their beliefs onto those people.

THAT is the common standard.

You are NOT asking for everyone to be treated the same way, you are asking for
special privileges for religious people to get out of doing things in society that they
don't want to do.