10 Dec 14
Originally posted by AgergYou are in error assuming that I am making claims. What I am making is an argument for the case that God exists. While doing so I am using claims that I believe God has made about Himself.
[b]What ever gives you the idea that I thought you should believe me?
Erm ... How about because you're making claims about your god which you expect us to believe!?? 😕
Your god*, does NOT exist - and if it did, given that I hold your conception of it is an evil god ... there would be incredible risk.
----------------------------------------------
* I.e. the notion of this entity which resides in your head[/b]
"* I.e. the notion of this entity which resides in your head"
"This entity" resides in my heart and in my head by way of God's Word. I have the Spirit of God living within. Why do you let it gripe you that I believe this to be so? You obviously haven't experienced being identified with Christ, yet you think you know it isn't real. Be honest, you don't really know it's not real. Do you?
10 Dec 14
Originally posted by black beetleGee! I looked it up in the Bible, went to a Greek concordance and that's what I came up with.
Oh well, you could probably tell me why you keep up writing the word "Theopneustos" the wrong way;
😵
I would like to relieve you of that burden. 😉 Please give me the correct spelling.
10 Dec 14
1 edit
Originally posted by josephwYou are in error assuming that I am making claims. What I am making is an argument for the case that God exists. While doing so I am using claims that I believe God has made about Himself.
You are in error assuming that I am making claims. What I am making is an argument for the case that God exists. While doing so I am using claims that I believe God has made about Himself.
[b]"* I.e. the notion of this entity which resides in your head"
"This entity" resides in my heart and in my head by way of God's Word. I have the Spirit of God ...[text shortened]... t, yet you think you know it isn't real. Be honest, you don't really know it's not real. Do you?[/b]
lemme check what you originally wrote (to which I made the response that leads us to this mess you've got yourself in) ...
There is no risk in taking God at His Word.
There's a saying within the Christian community, "if God said it, I believe it, that settles it". I disagree.
It would be better stated, "God said it, that settles it".
The truth of God's Word exists independent of whether I believe it or not. But when I believe, is when God's Word takes effect in my life, and not until then.
"There is no risk in taking God at His Word."<-- claim ... made by YOU
"There's a saying within the Christian community, "if God said it, I believe it, that settles it". I disagree."<-- ok, not really a claim
just stating the fact some people hold stupid positions
"It would be better stated, "God said it, that settles it"<-- claim ... made by YOU
that your stupid position on the word of "God" is more accurate than the one above
"The truth of God's Word exists independent of whether I believe it or not" ...<-- claim ... made by YOU
and no it doesn't!!!
But when I believe, is when God's Word takes effect in my life, and not until then.<-- sort of a claim, but not a very interesting one.
Sorry josephw but your statement "You are in error assuming that I am making claims" is just flat out wrong as the above clearly demonstrates. Further you have made no such argument that your God exists, you have merely asserted that "H"e does
which isn't really an argument
.
"This entity" resides in my heart and in my head by way of God's Word. I have the Spirit of God living within.
No ... it resides only in your head, your heart is a muscle that pumps blood around your body (including your brain). Your head on the other hand, houses a brain, and that brain has conceptualised the notion of a deity which is ass-backwards wrong. You no more have the "spirit of God" inside you than I have the spirit of Thor inside me.
Why do you let it gripe you that I believe this to be so? You obviously haven't experienced being identified with Christ, yet you think you know it isn't real. Be honest, you don't really know it's not real. Do you?
Because I'm smart enough to know that contradictions don't have a real-life manifestation ... your notion of god is simple minded and inherently contradictory ... hence I know it does not exist.
11 Dec 14
Originally posted by Agerg"Sorry josephw but your statement "You are in error assuming that I am making claims" is just flat out wrong as the above clearly demonstrates. Further you have made no such argument that your God exists, you have merely asserted that "H"e does."
[b]You are in error assuming that I am making claims. What I am making is an argument for the case that God exists. While doing so I am using claims that I believe God has made about Himself.
lemme check what you originally wrote (to which I made the response that leads us to this mess you've got yourself in) ...
[quote]There is no risk in taking God ...[text shortened]... notion of god is simple minded and inherently contradictory ... hence I know it does not exist.[/b]
You are mistaken. Think about it objectively if you can. Before you and I were born the scriptures were writen, and in them is the Word of God according to the scriptures. There's the claim. God makes the claim that He is the creator and the maker of you and I. Then you and I come along and debate about the veracity of those claims. I assert the claims made by God, but you say they are my claims. You are wrong to say they are my claims. You could say that I am a believer in those claims made by God, but you can't logically say that those claims are my own.
It's a subtle, yet distinct difference. Which is not to say that I don't make any claims at all. I do. But you have to get the context right.
"This entity" resides in my heart and in my head by way of God's Word. I have the Spirit of God living within.
No ... it resides only in your head, your heart is a muscle that pumps blood around your body (including your brain). Your head on the other hand, houses a brain, and that brain has conceptualised the notion of a deity which is ass-backwards wrong. You no more have the "spirit of God" inside you than I have the spirit of Thor inside me."
Here. I will give you an example of a claim made by God that I believe and know to be true.
1 Corinthians 3:16
Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and [that] the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
See? The Spirit of God is in me. Elsewhere it is stated that the body is the temple of the Holy Spirit. My whole person, the brain, the body, the soul and spirit are indwelt by God to the extent that His Word is formed within.
Not my claim, but God's claim. God's sure Word. God cannot lie.
"Because I'm smart enough to know that contradictions don't have a real-life manifestation ... your notion of god is simple minded and inherently contradictory ... hence I know it does not exist."
Wrong again! You know no such thing. You claim that what is in the scriptures is contradictory, but you cannot prove that. No one has ever proven to me that even one contradiction exists in the scriptures.
What is "simple minded and inherently contradictory" are your claims that the Word of God contains contradictions.
I remember a debate thread years ago where a number of those that hold to your claim tried in vain to produce even one contradiction from the scriptures. I remember being up all night refuting each claim. I proved that the claims made were false in every case.
11 Dec 14
Originally posted by FMFI think the finite opportunity that life offers creates a meaning and significance to each day that immortality would obliterate.
I think I do. I think the finite opportunity that life offers creates a meaning and significance to each day that immortality would obliterate.
Therefore I reckon starting from scratch at periodic intervals [or being able to] ~ much like reincarnation, I suppose ~ would be a condition or assurance that would be necessary to make it worthwhile to consume the ...[text shortened]... rnity of fresh starts, it might work.
But, all in all, I think I would turn down the elixir.
Except for that pesky idea which suggests that life is good.
In Paradise, what is here considered priceless by reason of its scarcity will there be revealed to be of the lowest of importance--- life, love, goodness, God are given the highest value.
11 Dec 14
1 edit
Originally posted by josephwLet's suppose that this discussion was held between myself and a fervent believer in the Flying Spaghetti Monster - i.e. I'll replace all instances of "God" with FSM and pretend I am arguing with someone else...
[b]"Sorry josephw but your statement "You are in error assuming that I am making claims" is just flat out wrong as the above clearly demonstrates. Further you have made no such argument that your God exists, you have merely asserted that "H"e does."
You are mistaken. Think about it objectively if you can. Before you and I were born the scriptures were ...[text shortened]... being up all night refuting each claim. I proved that the claims made were false in every case.[/b]
You are mistaken. Think about it objectively if you can. Before you and I were born the scriptures were writen, and in them is the Word of FSM according to the scriptures. There's the claim. FSM makes the claim that He is the creator and the maker of you and I. Then you and I come along and debate about the veracity of those claims. I assert the claims made by FSM, but you say they are my claims. You are wrong to say they are my claims. You could say that I am a believer in those claims made by FSM, but you can't logically say that those claims are my own.
Firstly, they were originally written in a language foreign to most people alive today, by people (note people != "FSM" ). Over time many variants of the Bible have found their way into existence - each one interpreted differently by those who subscribe to a given flavour. The claims I mentioned are entirely yours since they are based upon *YOUR* interpretation of a collection of writings made by people, within a particular brand of the Gospel of the Flying Spaghetti Monster (GotFSM). Claims such as There is no risk in taking "FSM" at his word are entirely yours.
Secondly - I could not say "[you] are a believer in those claims made by FSM" since there does not, and never has existed "FSM"
where "FSM" here refers to the notion of FSM *YOU* believe exists
to have made *ANY* claims
It's a subtle, yet distinct difference. Which is not to say that I don't make any claims at all. I do. But you have to get the context right.
The context here is that you are assuming the GotFSM is inspired by "FSM" and using that assumption to underwrite the assertions you keep making. Unfortunately for you, the FSM you believe in is just a figment of your imagination, and so you'll have to cough up from your own pockets when someone calls you out on one of these assertions. These claims are yours.
"This entity" resides in my heart and in my head by way of FSM's Word. I have the Spirit of FSM living within.
No ... it resides only in your head, your heart is a muscle that pumps blood around your body (including your brain). Your head on the other hand, houses a brain, and that brain has conceptualised the notion of a deity which is ass-backwards wrong. You no more have the "spirit of FSM" inside you than I have the spirit of Thor inside me."Here. I will give you an example of a claim made by FSM that I believe and know to be true.
Verse of GotFSM 1:
Know ye not that ye are the temple of FSM, and [that] the Spirit of FSM dwelleth in you?
See? The Spirit of FSM is in me. Elsewhere it is stated that the body is the temple of the Holy Spirit. My whole person, the brain, the body, the soul and spirit are indwelt by FSM to the extent that His Word is formed within.
Not my claim, but FSM's claim. FSM's sure Word. FSM cannot lie.
Firstly, you have conceptualised a notion of the FSM that cannot lie, but if there really was a FSM - who's to say it wasn't lying when told the authors of the GotFSM that it couldn't lie!???. But secondly, as I mentioned above, the FSM as you conceptualise it does not exist. The statement FSM's sure word is false.
"Because I'm smart enough to know that contradictions don't have a real-life manifestation ... your notion of FSM is simple minded and inherently contradictory ... hence I know it does not exist."Wrong again! You know no such thing. You claim that what is in the scriptures is contradictory, but you cannot prove that. No one has ever proven to me that even one contradiction exists in the scriptures.
What is "simple minded and inherently contradictory" are your claims that the Word of FSM contains contradictions.
I remember a debate thread years ago where a number of those that hold to your claim tried in vain to produce even one contradiction from the scriptures. I remember being up all night refuting each claim. I proved that the claims made were false in every case.
No you haven't, you've put forward broken arguments, which we shoot down time and time again, and you walk away oblivious to the fact you just got your arse handed to you.
-----------------------------------
Once you agree that the poster to whom I claim to be responding here is wrong, substitute God for FSM and assume I was actually responding to you.
11 Dec 14
Originally posted by AgergWhat in God's name are you even saying?
Let's suppose that this discussion was held between myself and a fervent believer in the Flying Spaghetti Monster - i.e. I'll replace all instances of "God" with FSM and pretend I am arguing with someone else...
[b]You are mistaken. Think about it objectively if you can. Before you and I were born the scriptures were writen, and in them is the Word of FSM a ...[text shortened]... be responding here is wrong, substitute God for FSM and assume I was actually responding to you.
What a bunch of gobbley-gook.
11 Dec 14
Originally posted by AgergA major problem with this is that the Flying Spaghetti Monster has no scriptures and certainly none which go back a couple of thousand years.
Let's suppose that this discussion was held between myself and a fervent believer in the Flying Spaghetti Monster - i.e. I'll replace all instances of "God" with FSM and pretend I am arguing with someone else...
[b]You are mistaken. Think about it objectively if you can. Before you and I were born the scriptures were writen, and in them is the Word of FSM a ...[text shortened]... be responding here is wrong, substitute God for FSM and assume I was actually responding to you.
11 Dec 14
3 edits
Originally posted by DeepThoughtIt is true that "the Flying Spaghetti Monster has no scriptures and certainly none which go back a couple of thousand years." but it is not true, for the purpose of its usage here, that this is a problem, certainly not a major problem. Essentially, scriptures or not, josephw looking in on someone else arguing as he does with a different deity, would have no problems pointing out how the believer wasn't making a valid argument.
A major problem with this is that the Flying Spaghetti Monster has no scriptures and certainly none which go back a couple of thousand years.
He is claiming, in so many words, that the words of the Bible being true is self-evident, that his notion of "God" is the correct one is self evident. This is clearly not the case, and if we were talking about any other deity (i.e. one he knows does NOT exist) he would not be making the same mistake.
Indeed I argue it is nigh impossible to make any progress in these sort of debates (where "God" acts like a set of blinkers) by limiting ourselves to arguing on their terms.