Mortal and venial sin

Originally posted by Nordlys
That's fine. The problem comes in when you throw people into a torture chamber if they don't want to take their shoes off.

If they don't take their shoes off, they'll have to stand outside. If it's cold then it's their own fault.

Originally posted by Nordlys
That's fine. The problem comes in when you throw people into a torture chamber if they don't want to take their shoes off.

An analogy is no good at all if you don't even try to get it!

No good at all if you deliberately miss the point.

What do you think of the merit of the point? Is God unjust for leaving someone outside, if don't want to come inside because they don't like the conditions (in His case, receiving the free gift of unmerited grace!)?

Originally posted by chinking58
An analogy is no good at all if you don't even try to get it!

No good at all if you deliberately miss the point.

What do you think of the merit of the point? Is God unjust for leaving someone outside, if don't want to come inside because they don't like the conditions (in His case, receiving the free gift of unmerited grace!)?

You are missing *my* point. God wouldn't be unjust for leaving someone outside. My point is that he is not just leaving them outside, he is sending them to a place which is meant as punishment of the worst sort. I would gladly stay outside. Maybe I would meet some TFC'lers, RHP'lers, RHC'lers and CAW'lers who'd also prefer to stay outside, and we could build our own houses and play chess.

Originally posted by Nordlys
You are missing *my* point. God wouldn't be unjust for leaving someone outside. My point is that he is not just leaving them outside, he is sending them to a place which is meant as punishment of the worst sort. I would gladly stay outside. Maybe I would meet some TFC'lers, RHP'lers, RHC'lers and CAW'lers who'd also prefer to stay outside, and we could build our own houses and play chess.

Actually, you're being unfair in the analogy because the analogy of a house does not proportionate to the analogy of torture.

Originally posted by lucifershammer
If they don't take their shoes off, they'll have to stand outside. If it's cold then it's their own fault.

Well, if Hell consists merely of eternal seperation from the God of the Bible, then I have no problem with it, 'cause it won't involve any suffering for me or those I love who will be there with me.

Originally posted by chinking58
If I invite you into my home bb, but then inform you that you must leave your shoes at the door, but you don't wanna take your shoes off because they are so near and dear to your heart, then you can't come in.

Simple rule, simple ...[text shortened]... se's house (or Kingdom).

So.....where is the 'self-worship'?

I have no problem with these conditions, if your analogy is apt and my refusing to worship your megalomaniacal God results merely in my eternal seperation from Him. I'm perfectly fine, in fact I would prefer, not to associate with an entity that thinks homosexuality is evil and that genocide is morally permissible. If, however, your analogy is flawed, and it is not mere seperation from God but also the infliction of eternal suffering upon me and those I love, then your God cannot be a loving, just and merciful God. The infliction of eternal suffering on another merely because that other fails to worship you is unloving, unjust, and unmerciful. In fact, it is a form of psychotic narcissism.

The self-worship lies in the egoism at the heart of Christianity; the desire for an ego that is immortal. You are prepared to believe anything at all, if it means that you can think of yourself as redeemed and be confident that you will never have to be truly free nor die. You are prepared to gladly worship an entity that would inflict upon your loved ones eternal suffering, if that entity will sustain your existence. You are prepared to live your life by the capricious (and often malicious) dictates of another, in exchange for some reward in the afterlife. That is the self-worship, it lies in your choice to believe in a fantasy merely because you are afraid of freedom and death and you hope for some future reward.

Originally posted by bbarr
I have no problem with these conditions, if your analogy is apt and my refusing to worship your megalomaniacal God results merely in my eternal seperation from Him. I'm perfectly fine, in fact I would prefer, not to associate with an entity that thinks homosexuality is evil and that genocide is morally permissible. If, however, your analogy is flawed, and i ...[text shortened]... ntasy merely because you are afraid of freedom and death and you hope for some future reward.

Kudos to you, Bbarr for this eloquent and truth filled statement.

Originally posted by bbarr
I have no problem with these conditions, if your analogy is apt and my refusing to worship your megalomaniacal God results merely in my eternal seperation from Him. I'm perfectly fine, in fact I would prefer, not to associate with an entity that thinks homosexuality is evil and that genocide is morally permissible. If, however, your analogy is flawed, and i ...[text shortened]... ntasy merely because you are afraid of freedom and death and you hope for some future reward.

Again you present us your warped vision of what Christianity entails.
You haven't understood anything at all about Christianity and you never will if you continue to spout such non-sense, probably found in some anti-Christian booklet written by some famous or not so famous 19th century philosopher. You will become as confused as the original author of that warped interpretation and you will end up like him.

It is about time you start studying in a serious way Roman Catholic theology. It might cure you from your ridiculous theological mistakes, your flawed reasoning and might take care of your childish and politically motivated way of deliberately misinterpreting the Christian Faith.

By the way, if you recieve compliments given by No1, I suggest you seriously start worrying about the substance of your statements ..... 😛

Originally posted by ivanhoe

Again you present us your warped vision of what Christianity entails.
You haven't understood anything at all about Christianity and you never will if you continue to spout such non-sense, probably found in some anti-Christian booklet written by some famous or not so famous 19th century philosopher. You will become as confused as the original author of ...[text shortened]... No1, I suggest you seriously start worrying about the substance of your statements ..... 😛

Hey, if the post above was nonsense, then it was my nonsense, and not that of some other philosopher. You can accuse me of making nonsensical claims, but please don't accuse me of cribbing the work of others.

Anyway, the comments above were not intended to apply to contemplative versions of Christianity such as those found in the work of St. John of the Cross, Meister Eckhart, and, more recently, Thomas Merton. I should have qualified the above accordingly.

Originally posted by bbarr
Hey, if the post above was nonsense, then it was my nonsense, and not that of some other philosopher. You can accuse me of making nonsensical claims, but please don't accuse me of cribbing the work of others.

Anyway, the comments above were not intended to apply to contemplative versions of Christianity such as those found in the work of St. John o ...[text shortened]... ster Eckhart, and, more recently, Thomas Merton. I should have qualified the above accordingly.

Maybe it is time you start that thread you didn't promise ... yet ...

What was it about ? The Sermon on the Mount ?

Originally posted by Nordlys
You are missing *my* point. God wouldn't be unjust for leaving someone outside. My point is that he is not just leaving them outside, he is sending them to a place which is meant as punishment of the worst sort. I would gladly stay outside. Maybe I would meet some TFC'lers, RHP'lers, RHC'lers and CAW'lers who'd also prefer to stay outside, and we could build our own houses and play chess.

Ok, so God is not unjust to not drag someone in who doesn't want to be in with Him. We have that part settled. My analogy was meant only to make that much of a point.

As far as the 'other place'...

I don't believe there exists a village of places one might choose to hang out at if not with God. I think there is either with God, or in hell. As I understand it, hell was created for those angels who followed Lucifer into rebellion, not for man. But it remains the only place 'available' for any who choose not to 'take their shoes off' as it were.

The idea that hell can be made into a heaven of sorts is all wet. By definition you might say. Like the girl who said once that she would just 'block it out of her mind' if she ended up in hell. If it weren't so serious it would be hilarious.

Originally posted by chinking58
Ok, so God is not unjust to not drag someone in who doesn't want to be in with Him. We have that part settled. My analogy was meant only to make that much of a point.

As far as the 'other place'...

I don't believe there exists a village of places one might choose to hang out at if not with God. I think there is either with God, or in hell. A ...[text shortened]... t out of her mind' if she ended up in hell. If it weren't so serious it would be hilarious.

Whaddya mean "it's the only place available"; you make God sound like the night clerk at a Motel Six. Surely he can whip up new accomodations any time he feels like it can't he? And what do you think Hell is like; guys with pitchforks and pointed tails or more Dante Infernoish?

Originally posted by bbarr
I have no problem with these conditions, if your analogy is apt and my refusing to worship your megalomaniacal God results merely in my eternal seperation from Him. I'm perfectly fine, in fact I would prefer, not to associate with an entity that thinks homosexuality is evil and that genocide is morally permissible. If, however, your analogy is flawed, and i ...[text shortened]... ntasy merely because you are afraid of freedom and death and you hope for some future reward.

I couldn't have said that better myself ...
😛

That's it.

Originally posted by bbarr
Well, if Hell consists merely of eternal seperation from the God of the Bible, then I have no problem with it, 'cause it won't involve any suffering for me or those I love who will be there with me.

Except that some Christian sources claim we are virtually incapable of good thoughts or actions without divine assistance (which extends even to unbelievers to some extent), so those in Hell descend to humanity's natural state, which is endless hatred, rage, depression etc. From what I've read, Christianity promotes the idea that humans are fundamentally wicked creatures, which is why we need God to keep us on the straight and narrow.

In fact, I've seen some people argue that humans are incapable of evil thoughts and actions without diabolical assistance. So perhaps it's best to see humans (when they're dead at least) as a form of property, without any ethics of their own - they belong to either God or the Devil, to do with as they please. All we have is a choice of master.

Originally posted by bbarr
Well, if Hell consists merely of eternal seperation from the God of the Bible, then I have no problem with it, 'cause it won't involve any suffering for me or those I love who will be there with me.

Of course, "mere separation" in this case is equal to eternal suffering. What kind of suffering, I cannot really tell. The standard metaphors used involve fire, sulfur and brimstone ...