Moses & Child Sexual Slavery (Bible Study)

Originally posted by ivanhoe

Anti-semite has a different connotation in connection to the past.

Anti-Jewish has the same range in meaning as for instance anti-American, anti-Russian, anti-Christian or anti-Islam.

Or anti-Sanity in your case, Ivanhoe.

Originally posted by ivanhoe

Anti-semite has a different connotation in connection to the past.

Anti-Jewish has the same range in meaning as for instance anti-American, anti-Russian, anti-Christian or anti-Islam.

It would then be....anti-Israel following that.

Israel is a county. Jewish is a religion.

RTh

Originally posted by Nyxie
Deuteronomy 21:10-14 "When thou goest forth to war against thine enemies, and the Lord thy God hath delivered them into thine hands, and thou hast taken them captive, And seest among the captives a beautiful woman, and hast a desire unto her, that thou wouldest have her to thy wife; Then thou shalt bring her home to thine house; and she shall shave her head, ...[text shortened]... e female slave of her virginity and then just throw her out if she was'nt good in bed.

Nyxie

You are reading something that is not there. Going to her and being her husband does not imply rape. In fact, the womans life was spared, she was given a month to mourn for her family, then she is given the option to be married to the man. If she does not please him, it is clear she has refused him. He is required to let her go. She is not a slave nor a wife and is set free. She is not even property since she can not be sold.

Her fine garments are taken, her head is shaved, and her nails trimmed. This may be done so that the man that has taken her captive have a time to cool off. The outward things that may have been part of his attraction to her (hair and clothes) are gone. After a month, he may not want her, and she may refuse him.

Originally posted by Nyxie
http://www.fridaystudy.org/bible/07_019.htm

You might find this story from Judges 19 verses 1-30 interesting.

This is history - not doctrine.

Originally posted by Coletti
You are reading something that is not there. Going to her and being her husband does not imply rape. In fact, the womans life was spared, she was given a month to mourn for her family, then she is given the option to be married to the man. If she does not please him, it is clear she has refused him. He is required to let her go. She is not a slave nor a ...[text shortened]... her (hair and clothes) are gone. After a month, he may not want her, and she may refuse him.

So he just goes there to lay in the same bed with her,not to have sex, and she's free to say no? Is this what you are saying?

Also it was an insult to cut a woman's hair at the time, why was this act done on the slave girls but forbidden on ancient isrealite women?

Originally posted by Coletti
This is history - not doctrine.

I never said it was doctrine, we are using the Bible as a historical reference in this thread. Do you state that this is historically incorrect? Or do you accept it to be correct?

Originally posted by Nyxie
I never said it was doctrine, we are using the Bible as a historical reference in this thread. Do you state that this is historically incorrect? Or do you accept it to be correct?

The bible or god does not give permission to rape anyone. If you are using it for a historic document you must acknowledge this.


RTh

Originally posted by Nyxie
So he just goes there to lay in the same bed with her,not to have sex, and she's free to say no? Is this what you are saying?

Also it was an insult to cut a woman's hair at the time, why was this act done on the slave girls but forbidden on ancient isrealite women?

It does not say he even laid in bed with her.

I don't think cutting her hair had anything to do with insulting her, but long hair is something that may have attracted him to her physically.

What would the point be in all that he has to do if she was to be forced into being a sex slave? Why then wait one month, and cut her hair an nails. It does not make sense.

Originally posted by Ringtailhunter
It would then be....anti-Israel following that.

Israel is a county. Jewish is a religion.

RTh

It is both anti-religion and anti-Israel. It is anti-Jewish.

Originally posted by Coletti
You are reading something that is not there. Going to her and being her husband does not imply rape. In fact, the womans life was spared, she was given a month to mourn for her family, then she is given the option to be married to the man. If she does not please him, it is clear she has refused him. He is required to let her go. She is not a slave nor a ...[text shortened]... her (hair and clothes) are gone. After a month, he may not want her, and she may refuse him.

It amazes me how blindly stubborn you are. Let's recap the "courtship" shall we: suitor comes to meet bride's family, suitor kills all of bride's family (perhaps in front of bride) by sticking sword through them, bride is given to suitor. This is your idea of a voluntary marriage??????????? What are her options there, Coletti?

Rape is defined in the NY Penal Law as "sexual intercourse with a female by forcible compulsion". "Forcible compulsion" is to compel by EITHER "use of physical force" or "a threat, express or implied, which places a person in fear of immediate death or physical injury". A young girl who's country has been invaded and all her family and friends killed by savage invaders would have a pretty good reason to fear "immediate death" from your heroes, wouldn't she? Stop sugarcoating the OT, Coletti, those girls were raped.

Originally posted by Nyxie
I never said it was doctrine, we are using the Bible as a historical reference in this thread. Do you state that this is historically incorrect? Or do you accept it to be correct?

Despite the garbage being spouted by no1 - this is not about how terrible the people of Israel where. It's has to do with what God condoned according to the Bible. Clearly God commanded them to kill the whole of the Midianites - and the Israelites messed that up by taking back captives. Saying that rape is condoned by the Bible is simply false.

Originally posted by Ringtailhunter
The bible or god does not give permission to rape anyone. If you are using it for a historic document you must acknowledge this.


RTh

Judges 21:10-24

And this story does'nt? Forced marraige is not a polite way to be betrothed. You can continue to act as if these women taken against there wills and married to men they did not love were not raped and forced, but to me it sounds as if they were.

Numbers 31:7-18

Deuteronomy 20:10-14

and of course the great rape law : Deuteronomy 22:28-29
why have a rape law if it did'nt happen?

Deuteronomy 22:23-24 If a girl is raped they both get put to death. This shows no compassion for the victim.

2 Samuel 12:11-14

Deuteronomy 21:10-14

Judges 5:30

Exodus 21:7-11 If he marries another he may not discontinue sleeping with her. Seems sleeping with her is mandated.

Zechariah 14:1-2 women ravished? I wonder what that means?


Well I can't wait to hear how I have misinterpreted all of these.....

Originally posted by Coletti
Despite the garbage being spouted by no1 - this is not about how terrible the people of Israel where. It's has to do with what God condoned according to the Bible. Clearly God commanded them to kill the whole of the Midianites - and the Israelites messed that up by taking back captives. Saying that rape is condoned by the Bible is simply false.

The "garbage" is in the OT. You obviously can't read; who divvies up the spoils of war in the Midianite Massacre? Numbers 31: 25

25 And Jehovah spake unto Moses, saying,

And in Numbers 31:35 that includes the female virgins. So saying God commanded them to kill all the Midianites is simply false according to the OT.

You can look at it one of two ways: either the Israelites were vicious, cruel killers who justified their cruelty by making up a vicious and cruel God or the OT God is a monster by any human standards of decency. Your choice.

Originally posted by Nyxie
Judges 21:10-24

And this story does'nt? Forced marraige is not a polite way to be betrothed. You can continue to act as if these women taken against there wills and married to men they did not love were not raped and forced, but to me it sounds as if they were.

Numbers 31:7-18

Deuteronomy 20:10-14

and of course the great rape law : Deuteronomy 22: ...[text shortened]... what that means?


Well I can't wait to hear how I have misinterpreted all of these.....

Judges 21:10-24 - history

Numbers 31:7-18 - says nothing about rape

Deuteronomy 20:10-14 - says nothing about rape, slaves maybe

Deuteronomy 22:28-29 - read back a few verses - verse 25 says forced sex - and that person was stoned to death, but not the girl. No one says it didn't happen.

Deuteronomy 22:23-24 - this is not rape. By saying "she did not cry out" - it means she was not forced. Read the surrounding verses - if it happens in a city and she does not cry out - means she was willing, if she was in the county - it assumes she DID cry out and the man only was put to death.

2 Samuel 12:11-14 - verse 11 clearly states that it is evil

Deuteronomy 21:10-14 - we went over this one. The man had to wait a month, the womans head was to be shaved, nails trimmed, fine clothes were taken - and after the month is up, if she did not please him (refused him or he no longer lusted for her) then she was free to go.

Judges 5:30 - history, does not condone anything

Exodus 21:7-11 - has to do with being a slave - and that even the slaves had rights. If the slave becomes a wife - SHE had conjugal rights! That's not rape.

Zechariah 14:1-2 Like 2 Sam - this describes evil that will befall Israel - evil that include their wives being raped - the implication is that rape is evil.

Originally posted by Coletti
Judges 21:10-24 - history

Goodo. Let's dismiss Judges 21:10-24 as mere history. But before we do, let's recap, as part of our Bible Study:

(Judges 21:10-24 NLT)

So they sent twelve thousand warriors to Jabesh-gilead with orders to kill everyone there, including women and children.  "This is what you are to do," they said. "Completely destroy all the males and every woman who is not a virgin."  Among the residents of Jabesh-gilead they found four hundred young virgins who had never slept with a man, and they brought them to the camp at Shiloh in the land of Canaan.

The Israelite assembly sent a peace delegation to the little remnant of Benjamin who were living at the rock of Rimmon. Then the men of Benjamin returned to their homes, and the four hundred women of Jabesh-gilead who were spared were given to them as wives.  But there were not enough women for all of them.  The people felt sorry for Benjamin because the LORD had left this gap in the tribes of Israel.  So the Israelite leaders asked, "How can we find wives for the few who remain, since all the women of the tribe of Benjamin are dead?  There must be heirs for the survivors so that an entire tribe of Israel will not be lost forever.  But we cannot give them our own daughters in marriage because we have sworn with a solemn oath that anyone who does this will fall under God's curse."

Then they thought of the annual festival of the LORD held in Shiloh, between Lebonah and Bethel, along the east side of the road that goes from Bethel to Shechem.  They told the men of Benjamin who still needed wives, "Go and hide in the vineyards.  When the women of Shiloh come out for their dances, rush out from the vineyards, and each of you can take one of them home to be your wife!  And when their fathers and brothers come to us in protest, we will tell them, 'Please be understanding.  Let them have your daughters, for we didn't find enough wives for them when we destroyed Jabesh-gilead. And you are not guilty of breaking the vow since you did not give your daughters in marriage to them.'"  So the men of Benjamin did as they were told.  They kidnapped the women who took part in the celebration and carried them off to the land of their own inheritance.  Then they rebuilt their towns and lived in them.  So the assembly of Israel departed by tribes and families, and they returned to their own homes.


Where in these passages, does God condemn them for these actions? If the Bible is the word of God then I would expect God to condemn the actions of the Men of Benjamin. But GOD DOES NOT condemn this behaviour.


Discuss in relation to God's compassion for women. (10 marks).