My pastor is a secret Atheist

Originally posted by FMF
The only "reality" either of us is dealing with here is whether we really believe or believed something. I don't see how you have any justification whatsoever in claiming that my beliefs were not "real" before they changed.

I guess reality will play out and truth will be learned, that is what happens to
us, we move along like we know and when we discover we didn't have it right
we either change or have to suffer with our errors. Bottom line, you never had
or gone through what I have with the Lord, so claiming you were like me in our
beliefs are completely false. I'll just say you missed the best part of life and are
without a doubt now settling for less than.
Kelly

Originally posted by FMF
As I have already made clear, I came to the conclusion that the beliefs you hold and propagate - that through Jesus we can find out what "God's instructions" are - was not the correct spiritual path for me. Prior to that, I was a Christian and my Christian beliefs were a "reality" for me every bit as much as your Christian beliefs are a "reality" for you now.

No
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
Then what made you a Christian at any time in your life, per your claims?
The very best part of Christianity is God, the only reason to turn from our
wicked ways is the Lord! What was it you claim was Christianity if not God?
I didn't become a Christian until I was in my mid 20's, before that I was totally
into enjoying myself, Jesus Christ gave and sho ...[text shortened]... ned to God.

What was it you claim you had, that you turned away so now you deny God?
Kelly

A Christian is a follower of Jesus Christ.

I was a Christian because I followed Jesus' teachings.

There are good reasons to turn from your 'wicked ways' outside of 'the Lord'. I bet you could even think of some of them, if you tried.

Good for you if 'God' helped you improve your life, but I think you are so prejudiced by your own personal experience that you are utterly unable to conceive that other people may have equally compelling experiences that lead them to different beliefs and relationships than your own.

I have already told you what I had.

Originally posted by KellyJay
Bottom line, you never had or gone through what I have with the Lord, so claiming you were like me in our beliefs are completely false.

I haven't claimed that I have "gone through" the same things as you. Nowhere have I claimed that. Nor have I claimed you have "gone through" the same things as me. What I can say is that we both claimed to be Christians - and you still do and while I no longer do.

Originally posted by SwissGambit
A Christian is a follower of Jesus Christ.

I was a Christian because I followed Jesus' teachings.

There are good reasons to turn from your 'wicked ways' outside of 'the Lord'. I bet you could even think of some of them, if you tried.

Good for you if 'God' helped you improve your life, but I think you are so prejudiced by your own personal experi ...[text shortened]... different beliefs and relationships than your own.

I have already told you what I had.

There is more to it than following Jesus' teachings! You can follow anyone's
teachings, there was no need for Jesus to die for that. The work of God was
to save us from our sins, the result of Jesus dying and being raised from the
dead was that we were restored to God. Once we were restored to God we
could recieve God's Spirit and follow Him, walking in the works that He has
for us. Without God's Spirit, without Jesus dying for us, and being raised from
the dead, following after Jesus teachings would get you no father in life than
anyone else's teachings. It is only because of who Jesus was/is/to be
that all of that matters! If all you had were some guys teachings you've missed
the point.
Kelly

Originally posted by FMF
I haven't claimed that I have "gone through" the same things as you. Nowhere have I claimed that. Nor have I claimed you have "gone through" the same things as me. What I can say is that we both claimed to be Christians - and you still do and while I no longer do.

Just do not compare the two of us as being the same type of Christian. I still
do not believe you actually met Jesus Chnst, though I believe you claimed a
great deal and later denied it.
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
Just do not compare the two of us as being the same type of Christian.

What you may or may not mean by "type", and whatever range of "types" you personally believe there are, has no bearing on the fact that I used to be a Christian. I am not "comparing" us at all, Kelly. I am simply drawing attention to the fact that we were both Christians, that you still are, and I am no longer one.

Originally posted by FMF
What you may or may not mean by "type", and whatever range of "types" you personally believe there are, has no bearing on the fact that I used to be a Christian. I am not "comparing" us at all, Kelly. I am simply drawing attention to the fact that we were both Christians, that you still are, and I am no longer one.

We are the same type of people both sinners, but you had some type of Jesus
that was less than. He wasn't real or worthy either one of those makes what
you had different than what I do.
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
We are the same type of people both sinners, but you had some type of Jesus that was less than. He wasn't real or worthy either one of those makes what you had different than what I do.

Well in my view, not only do you have no justification for making these claims, you have no reason to make them, unless it gives you some sort of satisfaction. I'd say you're being borderline misanthropic here, Kelly. Sorry to say it.

Originally posted by FMF
Well in my view, not only do you have no justification for making these claims, you have no reason to make them, unless it gives you some sort of satisfaction. I'd say you're being borderline misanthropic here, Kelly. Sorry to say it.

You claim you had Jesus Christ the Son of God in your life, you belonged to Him
at one point, you were a follower, yes? You later claim that Jesus Christ either is
not the Son of God or not real? You claimed to be a follower of Jesus Christ yet
you now claim to have found a better way, yes? I'm telling you that you and I
cannot have had the same Jesus in our lives, if you believe Jesus isn't the Son
of God now, or that you found a better way. What you had and what I do have
are not the samething.
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
There is more to it than following Jesus' teachings! You can follow anyone's
teachings, there was no need for Jesus to die for that. The work of God was
to save us from our sins, the result of Jesus dying and being raised from the
dead was that we were restored to God. Once we were restored to God we
could recieve God's Spirit and follow Him, walking in ...[text shortened]... of that matters! If all you had were some guys teachings you've missed
the point.
Kelly

Jesus' death and resurrection and atonement for sin was included in his teachings. He did need to die to save us. I thought you had actually read the Bible?!

I am just gobsmacked at your suggestion that Jesus' teachings minus death/resurrection/atonement are no better than any other teachings. If you were intent on showing how different you are compared to other Christians, you may have done it with this one. Most Christians would say that Jesus' 'other' teachings matter very much [even if they are not very good at following them, they would at least pay lip-service!]. You know, those teachings about being slow to anger, eschewing adultery, non-violence, forgiveness, helping the poor and the sick, etc. They would say that those teachings DO get you farther in life than just following any random shmuck/guru.

Originally posted by KellyJay
What you had and what I do have are not the same thing.

Be that as it may, but we were both Christians, you still are, and I am no longer one.

Originally posted by FMF
Be that as it may, but we were both Christians, you still are, and I am no longer one.

You no longer claim to be something else came your way I guess.
Kelly

Originally posted by SwissGambit
Jesus' death and resurrection and atonement for sin was included in his teachings. He did need to die to save us. I thought you had actually read the Bible?!

I am just gobsmacked at your suggestion that Jesus' teachings minus death/resurrection/atonement are no better than any other teachings. If you were intent on showing how dif ...[text shortened]... that those teachings DO get you farther in life than just following any random shmuck/guru.

Read the text, if all Jesus was, was just another man His teaching would be
no different than anyone else's you could follow that teaching with or without
death and resurrection. The fact that He did die and was resurrected sets Him
apart from all the other so called teachers of man. Sheesh...if you are going to
comment read the text.
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
You no longer claim to be something else came your way I guess.

I have been open about the fact I am not a Christian anymore, from the start of this discussion. What 'came my way' was a realization that I was on the wrong path. It does not bother me in the slightest that you are still on that path. On the other hand, you and I having reached different conclusions about our beliefs and each others beliefs, and having taken different paths, seems to bother you a lot.