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@moonbus said
You will have to show me a gospel writer who was an eyewitness. Not one of them could have been present when Jesus was allegedly conceived virginally. So this is a fabrication.

Not one of the gospelers was present at Jesus’s interrogation by Pilate, so the whole “what is truth” dialog is a fabrication.

When Jesus allegedly appears after the crucifixion, the gospels say ...[text shortened]... are factually in error. All the people who ever exhibited stigmata with bleeding palms were deluded.

John and Matthew were, and the others were in the same time period plus you have all of the witnesses during that time. Those that walked with Him and were His disciples and their disciples. You can believe what was written by those that experienced it or deny it, many of those did go to the grave not recanting the stories while it cost them their lives. You are not going to find natural explanations for supernatural events, which is why they are supernatural events. Simply choosing to disbelieve is on you.

@kellyjay said
Simply choosing to disbelieve is on you.

Some people, including yourself according to one of your recent replies to me, don’t believe that the bible is the complete, inerrant and exclusive word of God. Therefore it is wise to be careful when making assertions about it’s inerrancy.

@kellyjay said
Simply choosing to disbelieve is on you.

That's not how faith in supernatural things works.

@kellyjay said
John and Matthew were, and the others were in the same time period plus you have all of the witnesses during that time.

Nonsense. "John" and "Matthew" are just the names of books. "All of the witnesses during that time" conspicuously did not write anything. The gospels were written decades after Jesus' death. Paul wrote a whole slew of books/letters and he didn't even meet Jesus because Jesus was long since dead.

@moonbus said
You will have to show me a gospel writer who was an eyewitness. Not one of them could have been present when Jesus was allegedly conceived virginally. So this is a fabrication.

Not one of the gospelers was present at Jesus’s interrogation by Pilate, so the whole “what is truth” dialog is a fabrication.

When Jesus allegedly appears after the crucifixion, the gospels say ...[text shortened]... are factually in error. All the people who ever exhibited stigmata with bleeding palms were deluded.

The gospel of Jesus Christ according to Mathew, Mark, Luke, and John are a work by God and for God, a gift of salvation to man completed by God Himself.

Man has been doing his level best to twist, pervert, the gospel to make it palatable to his sinful nature. Anything to cast doubt on God in this world.

@fmf said
Nonsense. "John" and "Matthew" are just the names of books. "All of the witnesses during that time" conspicuously did not write anything. The gospels were written decades after Jesus' death. Paul wrote a whole slew of books/letters and he didn't even meet Jesus because Jesus was long since dead.

Just to add a bit of history here: Biblical scholars are in general agreement that the first gospel was that of Mark, and not earlier than 80 CE, some scholars put it at 110 CE. That's at least 50 years after the death of Jesus, possibly even later. Mark is held to have been Peter's secretary, so Mark never knew Jesus; his gospel is therefore hearsay at one remove, 50 years or more after the crucial event. Luke and Matt. were written even later and contain summaries of Mark plus bits not in Mark. No one knows where the other bits, not in Mark, came from; in any case, also not eyewitness accounts, but hearsay at two removes (since copied from Mark and an unknown source or sources which cannot now be named or identified). The gospel attributed to John may have been penned by someone who knew the Apostle John, but this is also not verifiable. In any case, this is not an eyewitness, as the fabricated account of the supposed interrogation before Pilate shows. No disciple dared to accompany Jesus in Pilate's presence; they were terrified they'd be sentenced to death as associates/co-conspirators in sedition (the charge against Jesus, "King of the Jews" was equivalent to sedition in the Roman province of Judea). No one recorded the dialog "what is truth" between Jesus and Pilate -- this is pure fabrication, long after the fact, for dramatic effect.

@kellyjay said
Man has been doing his level best to twist, pervert, the gospel to make it palatable to his sinful nature. Anything to cast doubt on God in this world.

What you are referring to here, of course, is that most people around the world don't share your religious beliefs. You talk about the gospels as if they provide objective support for your claims about our shared reality and you so often seek to frame dissent is in some way dishonest.

@kellyjay said
The gospel of Jesus Christ according to Mathew, Mark, Luke, and John are a work by God and for God, a gift of salvation to man completed by God Himself.

Man has been doing his level best to twist, pervert, the gospel to make it palatable to his sinful nature. Anything to cast doubt on God in this world.

Man has been doing his level best to twist, pervert, the gospel to make it palatable to his sinful nature.

Is that what you think moonbus is doing?

@moonbus said
Just to add a bit of history here: Biblical scholars are in general agreement that the first gospel was that of Mark, and not earlier than 80 CE, some scholars put it at 110 CE. That's at least 50 years after the death of Jesus, possibly even later. Mark is held to have been Peter's secretary, so Mark never knew Jesus; his gospel is therefore hearsay at one remove, 50 years o ...[text shortened]... uth" between Jesus and Pilate -- this is pure fabrication, long after the fact, for dramatic effect.

God does a work and some disagree its God doing a work, wow, what a shock.

@kellyjay said
God does a work and some disagree its God doing a work, wow, what a shock.

Bear these words of yours in mind when you claim that people who don't share your beliefs are supposedly doing their "level best to twist, pervert, the gospel". It's just a clumsy ad hominem. You may not agree, but you spend a lot of time not conversing in good faith.

@kellyjay said
The gospel of Jesus Christ according to Mathew, Mark, Luke, and John are a work by God and for God, a gift of salvation to man completed by God Himself.

Man has been doing his level best to twist, pervert, the gospel to make it palatable to his sinful nature. Anything to cast doubt on God in this world.

Yes, you’re quite right. The words have been twisted and misinterpreted. Let’s take the doctrine of the virgin birth, for example. Didn’t happen. Not biologically anyway. The doctrine is based on a mistranslation. The original Hebrew word for what Mary, mother of Jesus was, was “almah.” The original meaning in Jewish society denoted a social and legal status, not a physiological condition. It meant a girl or maiden who had never been married, not a person who had never had sexual relations. It was mistranslated into the gospels, written in Greek, as “parthenos,” from which we derive the word “parthenogenesis” which means asexual reproduction. From this initial mistranslation, a gigantic erroneous myth was propounded by the Church that Mary gave birth after an “immaculate conception.” Nonsense. Didn’t happen. Mary got pregnant the same way every other woman ever did: a man’s sperm got into her. And it wasn’t Joseph’s.

The so-called virgin birth relates to Jesus, not to Mary. It’s a metaphor for his awakening to his spiritual mission, which probably occurred during his sojourn in the desert. Since no woman was involved in this spiritual awakening to his second life, it was a ‘virginal’ kind of birth, just what Evangelicals call being “born again,” born of the Holy Ghost, not literally, not biologically.

Interpreting the virgin birth literally, biologically, and backdating it to Mary, is the crudest, most materialistic, least spiritual reading of the gospel. But that’s exactly what the Church did, made a crude blunder and invented the myth of a biological miracle. It’s Church hokus pokus, twisting and perverting original meanings, just as you said.

@kellyjay said
Man has been doing his level best to twist, pervert, the gospel to make it palatable to his sinful nature. Anything to cast doubt on God in this world.

Do you have a specific example of this please?

@divegeester said
Do you have a specific example of this please?

Yes. Literalism.

@moonbus said
Yes, you’re quite right. The words have been twisted and misinterpreted. Let’s take the doctrine of the virgin birth, for example. Didn’t happen. Not biologically anyway. The doctrine is based on a mistranslation. The original Hebrew word for what Mary, mother of Jesus was, was “almah.” The original meaning in Jewish society denoted a social and legal status, not a physiologi ...[text shortened]... gical miracle. It’s Church hokus pokus, twisting and perverting original meanings, just as you said.

The truth is here but it is smeared and twisted I agree, even on this chess site people want to rewrite the Word to make it what they want. That said it is impossible to alter the text from its original text because of the sheer number of copies out there, in different languages and locations no one ever had the ability to take them all and make changes so any time a discrepancy was added it would have been easy to find due to the large numbers of copies. The care put forward to protect the text was not something haphazardly done, even our modern-day translations in the text refer to possible alterations in the text none of which alter the Gospel or change the meaning in any meaningful way, not the way you have suggested. Point to some alterations you find egregious if you think I am wrong about them, then show me the text's true meaning and from where did you get both.

With respect to twisted misinterpretations that happen between us while we communicate with each other, you except less?