17 Apr 07
1 edit
Originally posted by Nemesioyour post is irrational because you are bring in hypotheticals and assumptions. You are going into other possible universes, I'm just talking about this one. Science says our universe is 13 billion years old and it has been expanding every since. If the planets in our galaxy collided the milky way may be destroyed, but how exactley is an entire universe destroyed as you say. Scientist trace everything back to the big bang 13.7 billion years ago, nothing before then. So you can throw out anything, but i'm trying to stay in reality.
Why can't the universe be uncreated? After all, physicists define matter/energy as being unable to
be created or destroyed. It's part of the fundamental definition of the universe.
That things are 'perfect' only means this universe survived. There could have been an infinitude of
previous universes that lasted trillions of years that 'failed' becau
So, what is there to say that the universe isn't the 'First Cause?'
Nemesio
in regards to your last question, the universe cannot be the first cause because matter cannot be created out of nothing.
17 Apr 07
2 edits
Originally posted by rwingett"Science has NOT proven that the universe is not eternal, by the way. "
I think the theory that the universe is uncaused and eternal is far more believable than the theory that there is a god who is uncaused and eternal and that he created the universe. You don't seen to be able to grasp that if you demand a first cause, your god is insufficient to the task. The same questions that you put to the universe also apply to god. Say obviously one of those lucky planets. There are probably others out there somewhere as well.
Science has proven the universe started with the big bang 13.7 billion years ago. It has been expanding every since, with it all being traced back to the big bang 13.7 billion years ago.
17 Apr 07
Originally posted by NimzovichLarsenYes, but what came before the Big Bang? The universe may be a series of Big Bangs and Big Crunches, with no beginning and no end.
"Science has NOT proven that the universe is not eternal, by the way. "
Science has proven the universe started with the big bang 13.7 billion years ago. It has been expanding every since, with it all being traced back to the big bang 13.7 billion years ago.
17 Apr 07
Originally posted by NimzovichLarsenThis is claimed about the observed universe. Scientists do not claim that before the big bang there was literally nothing. This is simple confusion on your part.
"Science has NOT proven that the universe is not eternal, by the way. "
Science has proven the universe started with the big bang 13.7 billion years ago. It has been expanding every since, with it all being traced back to the big bang 13.7 billion years ago.
17 Apr 07
Originally posted by NimzovichLarsenYou are stating that this universe has to have a first cause and, therefore, a Supreme Being
your post is irrational because you are bring in hypotheticals and assumptions. You are going into other possible universes, I'm just talking about this one. Science says our universe is 13 billion years old and it has been expanding every since. If the planets in our galaxy collided the milky way may be destroyed, but how exactley is an entire un ...[text shortened]... stion, the universe cannot be the first cause because matter cannot be created out of nothing.
must be the origin of that cause. As evidence to this, you observed the 'perfection' of this universe.
I offered why the 'perfection' of this universe does not require that a Supreme Being caused it, since
there could just as easily have been a billion universes that failed because they were imperfect.
That is: yes, that the universe is 'perfect' is a one in a billion shot, but who knows how many times
the universe has come into existence: no one.
For example, if I flip a fair coin 100 times, there is a small possibility that they will all come up
heads. However, if I flip that coin a trillion times, there is a higher likelihood that, at some point, there
will be a sequence of 100 heads.
We do not know how many times the universe coin has been flipped, so we do not know that the
'perfection' we observe is the result of trilliions of years of trial and error or the orchestration of a
single entity.
Scientists do not comment as to whether something existed before the 'big bang' because there is
absolutely no way of knowing.
Further, it is you who are introducing something 'outside of reality:' a Supreme Being who causes
things. If you are allowed to do this (something apart from matter, energy and the universe) why
am I disallowed from speculating about previous universes?
Nemesio
17 Apr 07
Originally posted by Nemesiojust tell me what do you think created all of these universes you speak of.
You are stating that this universe has to have a first cause and, therefore, a Supreme Being
must be the origin of that cause. As evidence to this, you observed the 'perfection' of this universe.
I offered why the 'perfection' of this universe does not require that a Supreme Being caused it, since
there could just as easily have been a billion u ...[text shortened]... universe) why
am I disallowed from speculating about previous universes?
Nemesio
17 Apr 07
1 edit
http://www.big-bang-theory.com/
Easy to read and understand. Perhaps it is reasonable to assume we will never know how the big bang came to form, since there is no way to gain evidence outside the universe? I don't know, something to think about.
Oh yeah, make sure click and read the "Does God exist" link at the bottom. There are some good points.
17 Apr 07
Originally posted by NimzovichLarsenI do not believe that the current universe was created ex nihilo, nor any other universes that
just tell me what do you think created all of these universes you speak of.
might or may have existed. The sum total of matter and energy (albeit in constantly changing forms)
has not changed at any point in the infinity of time. This is what I believe.
This belief is not exclusive to the notion of The Divine (in which I also believe), just irrelevant to it.
Nemesio
17 Apr 07
1 edit
Originally posted by Nemesioso you believe time and matter have existed forever, but nothing created either? Just want to make sure I understand.
I do not believe that the current universe was created ex nihilo, nor any other universes that
might or may have existed. The sum total of matter and energy (albeit in constantly changing forms)
has not changed at any point in the infinity of time. This is what I believe.
This belief is not exclusive to the notion of The Divine (in which I also believe), just irrelevant to it.
Nemesio
17 Apr 07
Originally posted by Nemesiosorry don't remember what your question was. I'm still trying to grasp how someone can believe matter has existed forever with no starting point. That is so illogical my head is starting to hurt. How could there never have been a starting point? and what would that make the point of life at all? I just wonder how someone can think everything they know, all the complexities of the brain, the universe, thought, imagination..etc. that it's all the result random, meaningless..and that the universe has alway been here (always is a pretty long time if you really think about it) for no rhyme or reason. wow man, you have my sympathies.
Yes. Having answered your question, will you answer mine?
Nemesio
17 Apr 07
Originally posted by NimzovichLarsenYour massive illogic deserves scorn, not sympathy.
sorry don't remember what your question was. I'm still trying to grasp how someone can believe matter has existed forever with no starting point. That is so illogical my head is starting to hurt. How could there never have been a starting point? and what would that make the point of life at all? I just wonder how someone can think everything the ...[text shortened]... time if you really think about it) for no rhyme or reason. wow man, you have my sympathies.
17 Apr 07
1 edit
Originally posted by NimzovichLarsenWhat part of this can't you grasp?
are you talking abut t.h. green's beliefs? you are nuts. and all the rest of us (millions) that believe in a God are all wrong huh?
I'll assume from your lack of an answer you have none as to how the universe was created.
The universe is a manifestion of the Eternal Consciousness.
Arguments to popularity are fallacious. However, it's worth stating that the belief that the universe and all in it are one is a part of Hindu, Buddhist and Taoist belief systems all of which pre-date Christianity by many hundreds of years and hundreds of millions of people still adhere to these beliefs. That you are appalling ignorant of this fact is unsurprising; the theists on this board (with a few exceptions) are complete bumpkins when it comes to knowledge of virtually anything - but their lack of familiarity with other philosophical and religious systems of thought are truly stunning.
18 Apr 07
Originally posted by whodeyI choose to believe that the Earth is flat because from where I'm standing it sure looks like it is. And this is perfectly logical to you?
The question is why people thought the earth was flat. When one looks around it appears flat as opposed to round thus they concluded that the earth was flat. It was nothing more than an illusion. However, even though the illusion was not real, it was real to them. When you compare believing in God to the tooth fairy it is like saying that the earth is tri ...[text shortened]... .
I say choose your illusion/reality. Choices for either are based upon percieved evidences.
18 Apr 07
Originally posted by XanthosNZIt would if there was no other input on the matter. However, people today tell you that it is not flat and give you pictures of the earth to show you that it is not flat and have created mathmatical equations prooving that it is not flat etc. You now have other evidences that counter the evidences that it is flat.
I choose to believe that the Earth is flat because from where I'm standing it sure looks like it is. And this is perfectly logical to you?