Spirituality
03 Dec 09
06 Dec 09
Originally posted by karoly aczelGood advice. He test me at times and sometimes wins a little.
I think I know where you are coming from-he is quite 'gruff' at times, however he often quotes from the bible , and me being not very well versed in the bible, am just as likely to see his point of view as anyone elses.
Anyway I'll leave it and I think you should too. I'm sure there will be future encounters which will reinvigorate old rivalries. 🙂
06 Dec 09
1 edit
Originally posted by amannionalright smart guy, where is the page on wikipedia that it was copied from, for if you cannot find it, you shall be eating those words with extra marshmallows and cherries washed down with lashings of tia maria and coke over flowing from a chocolate and marzipan fountain, , so where is it? for i can tell you for a fact, it was not copied from wikipedia, so where is the page!
Yeah, nicely copied from Wikipedia. Well done ...
06 Dec 09
Originally posted by robbie carrobieTake a chill pill Robbie. I'm using Wikipedia as shorthand for some sort of reference work. If you've actually done the research yourself to compile this I apologise most sincerely.
alright smart guy, where is the page on wikipedia that it was copied from, for if you cannot find it, you shall be eating those words with extra marshmallows and cherries washed down with lashings of tia maria and coke over flowing from a chocolate and marzipan fountain, , so where is it? for i can tell you for a fact, it was not copied from wikipedia, so where is the page!
Your point is lost however if you take a step back and really think about it. You're claiming that the ubiquity of flood myths points to something tangible about the flood story. I would suggest they point only to the ubiquity of floods.
I'd also ask, what about other natural disaster myths - fires, earthquakes, volcanoes, hurricanes and cyclones, and so on. We're likely to find many societies that have mythical stories about such events. Does this point to the biblical stories as the origin of these myths? Hardly, it just happens that fires, earthquakes, volcanic eruptions, hurricanes, cyclones and other major natural disasters occur all around the world.
So what?
06 Dec 09
Originally posted by galveston75this is what it boils down to doesn't it? god was involved. what happened with "science supports the existence of the flood?"
You'll never understand that all animals on earth came from the ones on the ark unless you recognize that God was involved in making it happen. So by shutting God out of the picture the flood will never seem possible to you.
do you know what "last thursdayism" is? it is a "religion" that says all existance was created last thursday. but wait you will say, "i went to the grand gathering of crazy creationists 2 months ago, how is that possible?". well it is easy: god created the whole world last thursday and gave you the feeling, the illusion you had a life before. or that once einstein existed. or that WWII occured. god could do that. because he is god.
do you know what the problem is with saying "god did it"? it kinda throws away any chance of us making progress as a species. what use is trying to gain knowledge when some yahoo can "solve" any problem by saying "god did it". the how is no longer important, we can simply get in our buggies and go to church and wait for the apocalypse because everything you ever needed to figure out can be answered with god.
06 Dec 09
1 edit
Originally posted by amannionlol, i see, so wikipedia is not really wikipedia, how vewy vewy interesting, but yes you are correct, we have a reference work, so no need to apologise. Karoly Poly also made this point that they are simply parochial accounts of some regional flooding. Unless the actual accounts themselves are looked at upon an individual basis, and it can be determined that this is the case, then does not the sheer scope of the accounts point to a basis for believing that the catastrophe was global, of course, it proves nothing in itself, lets be honest, its simply another line of reasoning, that as yet has only been touched upon. There may be other accounts of disasters, however we are particularly interested in establishing those ones which fit our criteria, deluge, persons saved with animals, in a vessel etc etc etc.
Take a chill pill Robbie. I'm using Wikipedia as shorthand for some sort of reference work. If you've actually done the research yourself to compile this I apologise most sincerely.
Your point is lost however if you take a step back and really think about it. You're claiming that the ubiquity of flood myths points to something tangible about the flood stor urricanes, cyclones and other major natural disasters occur all around the world.
So what?
06 Dec 09
Originally posted by karoly aczelthe reason i given up on him is because of the "imbecilities" he craps out of his mouth every time he is in a discussion about religion. in all our talks and basically in all his history of spirituality forum spamming he has not once proven anything yet. but then he comes and says something like that. delusional might be a proper word here.
Mr."suck up" here to put in my 2 bobs worth forward. G75 mentioned the numerous accounts of floods. I too have come across some of these accounts, however nothing that I've researched would indicate a global flood. Local floods, yes, but the whole of the world underwater? C'mon !
Propes Knob is also right up there as far as patience and a "fair go" g ...[text shortened]... up", but then realized that I could use that advice myself.
At least I realize it😛
so you see, it is best to let delusional people (also drunk people or small children in a tantrum fit) scream their mouths off. if you give them attention, you only encourage them.
06 Dec 09
Originally posted by galveston75so again i ask you, you deny evolution existed but you say god made a hole bunch of kinds of canines from a pair (or seven) dogs?
God is how you account for the whole thing.......... I did not say only a few species survived. Read carefully. I said as an example with canines. All you have to have survive is one set as with 2 dogs. With the genes from them God could make others such as wolves exist. To hard to understand?
is that logical to you?
06 Dec 09
Originally posted by amannionhere are some other lines of reasoning that may interest you, again i am not the author.
Take a chill pill Robbie. I'm using Wikipedia as shorthand for some sort of reference work. If you've actually done the research yourself to compile this I apologise most sincerely.
Your point is lost however if you take a step back and really think about it. You're claiming that the ubiquity of flood myths points to something tangible about the flood stor ...[text shortened]... urricanes, cyclones and other major natural disasters occur all around the world.
So what?
Is There Worldwide Evidence?
Do we see similar effects of flooding throughout the earth? A. M. Rehwinkel gives an example in his book The Flood:
“Large masses of granite and hard metamorphic rock, for example, which can be traced to Scandinavia, are scattered over the plains of Denmark and northern Germany. Some of these blocks are of an immense size, weighing thousands of tons. The same phenomenon is found here in America in the New England States and in New York, Pennsylvania, Ohio, Michigan, Wisconsin, Minnesota, Iowa, in eastern and western Canada, and elsewhere. . . . In many cases the distance over which they have been transported is very great, and sometimes they are found at an elevation apparently much higher than their source.”
Some have theorized that these huge masses of stone were carried to their present locations on top of glaciers during an ice age. “However, these boulders are also found in warmer climates far from any signs of glaciation. For example, in Southern California,” notes the book Target: Earth. Too, glaciers cannot account for many of these “erratic” rock masses resting on ground higher, sometimes thousands of feet higher, than their apparent original location. “And there is still another problem connected with the erratics for which the glacial theory has no satisfactory answer,” observes Rehwinkel:
“And that is the question of the mixture of rocks in one locality brought there from sources lying in opposite directions. This phenomenon has been observed in several places of the earth. One of them is in Saxony, where rocks are found lying together of which some had their source in Scandinavia in the north, while others were carried there from some source in the south. . . . Moving ice cannot accumulate boulders from opposite directions and deposit them together at one place.”
Is there widespread evidence of such a watery destruction of living creatures?
Interestingly, in the United States, England, France, southern Spain, Germany, Russia and elsewhere huge fissures in the earth have been found filled with the remains of large numbers of animals. They include mixtures of bones of the elephant, rhinoceros, hippopotamus, reindeer, horse, hog, bear, and many others. One such cavern near Palermo, Sicily, yielded more than twenty tons of bones for commercial purposes. Often these fissures are located on isolated hills at considerable height where animals would be expected to flee from floodwaters that “kept increasing greatly upon the earth.” (Gen. 7:18) With regard to the variety of animal remains found in one bone cave, the book Earth’s Most Challenging Mysteries asks:
“What made rabbits run into the same cave as coyotes? And an antelope with a wolverine and a grizzly? Bones of the mastodon were found, also a few reptiles . . . The whole mass of bones was covered and preserved by a flood deposit of gravel and rocks.”
An extraordinary testimony to the widespread watery destruction of animal life is the remains of the mammoths found throughout northern Siberia and into Alaska. Hundreds of thousands (some estimate as many as 5,000,000) of these creatures were rapidly buried and quick-frozen in icy muck. They are sometimes found in a near-perfect state of preservation, with undigested tropical vegetation in their stomachs and between their teeth. As to the type of catastrophe that could sweep away creatures over so widespread an area, Earth’s Most Challenging Mysteries observes:
“There is one significant fact that is always connected with every dinosaur fossil and every mammoth fossil, and that is that every fossil is almost invariably dug out of water-laid sedimentary rock. Every fossil is either dug out of shale, which is just floodwater mud hardened into rock, or out of floodwater sand hardened into sandstone, or frozen into permafrost.”
Target: Earth notes with regard to the Yukon district of North America: “The presence of bones, trees, peat, and other debris all mixed together down to a depth of nearly 100 feet, points to a cataclysmic flood of tremendous proportions that must have moved across the land, grinding the bodies of the animals with stones and trees and spreading the whole out over the Yukon Valley.”
06 Dec 09
Originally posted by robbie carrobieI see your point, and if I was trying to shore up evidence for a flood I guess I'd do the same thing. But the large number of flood myths seems to me to simply point to the preferred habitat of many of these human groups - close to rivers and lakes - and this habitat is likely to flood quite often.
lol, i see, so wikipedia is not really wikipedia, how vewy vewy interesting, but yes you are correct, we have a reference work, so no need to apologise. Karoly Poly also made this point that they are simply parochial accounts of some regional flooding. Unless the actual accounts themselves are looked at upon an individual basis, and it can be determ ...[text shortened]... those ones which fit our criteria, deluge, persons saved with animals, in a vessel etc etc etc.
Surviving these floods in a vessel should not be a surprise, humans have been building ships, carving out canoes, or floating on timber for milennia. Saving animals as well should also not really surprise us since our domestic animals provide food, clothing, and company, it's perfectly understandable that we would want to protect them. Witness some of the extraordinary attempts modern farmers go through to save their animals in floods.
Now if it could be demonstrated that these myths all referred to the saving of wild animals, and a large percentage of the wild animals in an area, then I would be more interested.
But it's stretching evidence quite a bit to try to make the case for the flood with these myths. I know you're not doing that, merely using these as supporting evidence, but still, the point is there's a much simpler explanation.
06 Dec 09
Originally posted by amannionhi, ammanion, sure, post your explanation , also give consideration to the above, the immediate above.
I see your point, and if I was trying to shore up evidence for a flood I guess I'd do the same thing. But the large number of flood myths seems to me to simply point to the preferred habitat of many of these human groups - close to rivers and lakes - and this habitat is likely to flood quite often.
Surviving these floods in a vessel should not be a surpris ...[text shortened]... g these as supporting evidence, but still, the point is there's a much simpler explanation.
06 Dec 09
Originally posted by robbie carrobieMy initial guess with regard to animals found in mysterious places, and with unusual foodstuffs in their guts, would be to question the reference itself. As a kid I was a great reader of Erik Von Daniken and some of his bizarre stuff about alien visitations and the Bermuda triangle and other such mysteries. I ate it up, only to discover later that it was fantasy.
here are some other lines of reasoning that may interest you, again i am not the author.
Is There Worldwide Evidence?
Do we see similar effects of flooding throughout the earth? A. M. Rehwinkel gives an example in his book The Flood:
“Large masses of granite and hard metamorphic rock, for example, which can be traced to Scandinavia, are scat ...[text shortened]... bodies of the animals with stones and trees and spreading the whole out over the Yukon Valley.”
I'm guessing much of the stuff you quote here may be of the same type - fantastical evidence, quoted by those who believe in the flood in the first place and are merely trying to shore up their belief.
Of course, I could be wrong.
On the geological stuff, I agree, there are some mysteries with respect to rocks found in unusual places. I don't have an answer to that one, although I do have a related anecdote:
I was doing some work with a group of academics up in the mountains of the Australian Alps about 10 years ago. One of the guys was a geologist. We were going for a walk along a mountain trail and we came across a bridge that had been constructed with some revegetation work ongoing around and underneath the bridge. Part of the revegetation include placing some largish (maybe 50cm plus) rocks across the creek bed to help prevent erosion.
He pointed to the rocks and noted that they would present a conundrum for geologists in a thousand years time, since they were not rock types that were found anywhere in the alps.
I wonder if some of the smaller boulders that you mentioned, may have been brought into unusual places by human groups.
Just a thought.
06 Dec 09
Originally posted by robbie carrobieMy explanation is as given already. Many groups have flood myths because many groups suffer through floods.
hi, ammanion, sure, post your explanation , also give consideration to the above, the immediate above.
I'm not sure you could get much simpler than that.
The biblical flood story to me is reminiscent of any other flood story/myth - it just happens to have been elevated somewhat by the popularity of the book it's a part of.
06 Dec 09
Originally posted by amannionWhat would be the purpose of the flood account in the Bible if it was just a myth?
My explanation is as given already. Many groups have flood myths because many groups suffer through floods.
I'm not sure you could get much simpler than that.
The biblical flood story to me is reminiscent of any other flood story/myth - it just happens to have been elevated somewhat by the popularity of the book it's a part of.