31 Dec 09
2 edits
Originally posted by jaywill[/b]Jaywill, there is nothing in the passage from Matthew that implies in any way that Jesus is speaking of "dispensational punishment". In fact, so far as I know, there is nothing in any of what Jesus taught to His followers while He walked the earth that points to "dispensational punishment" whatsoever.
[b]================================
Let's look to Matthew 24:45-51:
45 “Who then is the faithful and sensible slave whom his master put in charge of his household to give them their food at the proper time? 46 “Blessed is that slave whom his master finds so doing when he comes. 47 “Truly I say to you that he will put him in charge of all his possessi the realm of His glorious light filled presence. And it must be temporary.
Take a closer look at 50-51:
"the master of that slave will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour which he does not know, 51 and will cut him in pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."
The slave will be dismembered and sent to the same place as "the hypocrites" where "there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth." Keep in mind that these are the same "hypocrites" that Jesus spoke so strongly against.
There's no way to reasonably prop this passage up as Jesus supporting your theory.
What's more, if you look at the story of the rich young ruler, you'll see that there is no distinction made between "Kingdom of God", "eternal life" and being "saved" and that keeping the commandments is necessary for these.
Matthew 19
16 And someone came to Him and said, “Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may obtain eternal life?”
Jesus is asked about obtaining eternal life.
17 And He said to him, "...if you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments."
Jesus tells him he must keep the commandments. KEEP THE COMMANDMENTS. This is what Jesus taught was necessary to obtain eternal life.
18 Then he said to Him, “Which ones?” And Jesus said, “YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT MURDER; YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTERY; YOU SHALL NOT STEAL; YOU SHALL NOT BEAR FALSE WITNESS; 19 HONOR YOUR FATHER AND MOTHER; and YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.” 20 The young man said to Him, “All these things I have kept; what am I still lacking?” 21 Jesus said to him, “If you wish to be complete, go and sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me.”
Jesus gives him a list of commandments which he says he has kept. So Jesus invites him to give up his current lifestyle and join Him.
22 But when the young man heard this statement, he went away grieving; for he was one who owned much property.
The young man valued his current lifestyle more than being able to join Him and went away grieving.
23 And Jesus said to His disciples, “Truly I say to you, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. 24 “Again I say to you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.” 25 When the disciples heard this, they were very astonished and said, “Then who can be saved?” 26 And looking at them Jesus said to them, “With people this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”
The rich young ruler, Jesus and the disciples have used "eternal life", "kingdom of heaven", "kingdom of God" and "saved" interchangeably. Jesus has taught that keeping the commandments is necessary for obtaining "eternal life".
01 Jan 10
1 edit
Originally posted by ThinkOfOneFive edits? Really? I needed but one!
Your responses just get sorrier and sorrier.
Your responses are too stupid to insult, so I'll just allow reality to do the job for me.
Yet another self-defeating statement from you.
You are here claiming that I have failed to address the biblical teachings regarding the righteousness required for entrance into heaven. Contrary to th spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again" (John 3:1-7).
I can't imagine what could have inspired five edits for this response, as it doesn't support a thoughtful consideration of any of the topics at hand, let alone five stabs at the same.
To wit...
On the following date, I posted the following in response to your inquiry about righteousness (condensed for the reader's pleasure):
24 Dec '09 23:19
Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
It's remarkable that Jesus spent a great deal of time and effort into teaching what is right ...[text shortened]... in such a short time. Are those teachings of Jesus worthless? Was Jesus that clueless?
The issue was not rendered moot by anyone. Without the righteousness of God, no one will see Him--- except at the judgment seat.
Our righteousness is Christ.
May I draw the reader's attention to the last phrase of this quoted post, namely, "our righteousness is Christ." Here, I am clearly attempting to draw a parallel between what the Lord Jesus Christ declared as a pre-requisite of inheriting eternal life and God's solution to our dilemma. Or, for those who came to school today on a shorter version of a regular-sized bus, this post of mine answered the suggestion that perhaps righteousness was no longer a necessary possession in the negative.
That my responses are regarded by you as worthless is of no surprise: you are obviously enamored of your unquestioned righteousness, considering it your very own golden ticket which guarantees your entrance to eternal bliss, which no doubt will be accompanied by the eternal gratitude of the Creator for your unwarranted considerations in choosing to spend your time with lowly Him.
What a ludicrous assertion. Jesus often spoke figuratively rather than literally.
Really? I had no idea. What an ingenious concept. Pray tell, oh gifted one, how can a soul hope to keep their p's from their q's, hope to know right from left? Are we left to our own devices, or is their some elusive diving rod by which we who are left behind might find our way to the good water?
Do you need me to spell it out in more detail? Are you really that blind?
Do tell, do tell!
All kidding aside, I've met people with less sense than you, so don't feel too bad.
My only comfort in all of this, is that you profess to want to know the truth. Be careful, you just might get want you are after!
01 Jan 10
Originally posted by FreakyKBHJohn 15:10
Five edits? Really? I needed but one!
I can't imagine what could have inspired five edits for this response, as it doesn't support a thoughtful consideration of any of the topics at hand, let alone five stabs at the same.
To wit...
On the following date, I posted the following in response to your inquiry about righteousness (condensed for the ...[text shortened]... fess to want to know the truth. Be careful, you just might get want you are after!
"If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love."
01 Jan 10
1 edit
Originally posted by ThinkOfOne====================================
Jaywill, there is nothing in the passage from Matthew that implies in any way that Jesus is speaking of "dispensational punishment". In fact, so far as I know, there is nothing in any of what Jesus taught to His followers while He walked the earth that points to "dispensational punishment" whatsoever.
Take a closer look at 50-51:
"the master of t ing the commandments is necessary for obtaining "eternal life".[/b]
23 And Jesus said to His disciples, “Truly I say to you, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. 24 “Again I say to you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.” 25 When the disciples heard this, they were very astonished and said, “Then who can be saved?” 26 And looking at them Jesus said to them, “With people this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”
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With man it is impossible. But with God all things are possible.
In other words entering into the kingdom of God, obtaining eternal life, is a matter of the work of the grace of God. He works what is impossible for man to work.
If God does not work for and in man, no one can be saved.
So your own reference defeats your grace denying, law keeping method of obtaining eternal life.
01 Jan 10
3 edits
Originally posted by ThinkOfOne====================================
Jaywill, you really need to try to comprehend what you're reading before you respond. Your lengthy rants on "Servants and stewards of the master corresponds to believers in Christ" and [i]"Presumably in your eyes all these believers are still 'saved' as they are at worst only to have their 'portion appointed with the unbelievers' and receive 'lashe re negative, I doubt there's anything that could be said to change your mind.
Well, if you don't see being dismembered as being more negative, I doubt there's anything that could be said to change your mind.
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"Cut him asunder" is not a phrase to be taken literally. It is to be taken as a punishment.
Obviously, to be physically dismembered renders the impossibility of weeping and gnashing teeth in deep regret. Such a dismembered body is dead.
What is probably signified by being cut asunder is an action that causes the offender to be separated temporarily from the Lord.
It is more believable than imagining two separated pieces of a human being weeping and gnashing teeth with unbelievers.
When we compare Matthew's account with Luke 12:47-48 where we are told that the evil servant shall be beaten with many stripes. To be beaten is not to perish, for the Lord's sheep shall never perish (See John 10:27-28)
01 Jan 10
1 edit
Originally posted by jaywill[/b]Jesus says nothing about "grace" here nor is it implied. Try reading what Jesus actually says. Do you really think it reasonable to assume that Jesus is speaking of "salvation by grace" right after He says, ""if you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments."
[b]====================================
23 And Jesus said to His disciples, “Truly I say to you, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. 24 “Again I say to you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.” 25 When the disciples heard this, they were very astonished and ...[text shortened]... So your own reference defeats your grace denying, law keeping method of obtaining eternal life.
How about addressing the germane points of my post?
01 Jan 10
Originally posted by ThinkOfOneFirstly, after calling a long post I labored on a long rant, I am not in any mood to carefully read through your own long post.
Jesus says nothing about "grace" here nor is it implied. Try reading what Jesus actually says. Do you really think it reasonable to assume that Jesus is speaking of "salvation by grace" right after He says, ""if you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments."
How about addressing the germane points of my post?
Why should I take time with your long post when you despise my time consuming work.
The passage does not have to mention the word grace. It is unmistakenly implied in the phrase "With man it is impossible. But with God all things are possible."
You and I do not respect each other. Discussion is not fruitful. I don't feel like carefully reading your post if you dismiss mine as a long rant.
01 Jan 10
8 edits
Originally posted by jaywill[/b]Firstly, after calling a long post I labored on a long rant, I am not in any mood to carefully read through your own long post.
Firstly, after calling a long post I labored on a long rant, I am not in any mood to carefully read through your own long post.
Why should I take time with your long post when you despise my time consuming work.
The passage does not have to mention the word [b]grace. It is unmistakenly implied in the phrase "With man it is impossible. But wi t fruitful. I don't feel like carefully reading your post if you dismiss mine as a long rant.
Why should I take time with your long post when you despise my time consuming work.
Look at what I said about the SECTIONS of your post I called rants:
Jaywill, you really need to try to comprehend what you're reading before you respond. Your lengthy rants on "Servants and stewards of the master corresponds to believers in Christ" and "Presumably in your eyes all these believers are still 'saved' as they are at worst only to have their 'portion appointed with the unbelievers' and receive 'lashes'" were pointless as no objection was posed. I was just "setting the table" as they say.
No objection was raised yet you blindly proceeded as if one were, so it came off as a rant. You let your anger get the best of you.
I do not despise your work, however it seems you despise mine as you find it threatening to your beliefs. The teachings of Jesus carry a lot of weight.
The passage does not have to mention the word grace. It is unmistakenly implied in the phrase "With man it is impossible. But with God all things are possible."
It isn't "implied" either. Seeing as he says that right after he says "if you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments" it's much more reasonable that Jesus was referring to "righteousness". When one keeps the commandments, i.e. is righteous, one is "with God".
I can see how you'd be reluctant to deal with the following germane points from my post as it shows that the teachings of Jesus are in opposition to your theory.
The rich young ruler, Jesus and the disciples have used "eternal life", "kingdom of heaven", "kingdom of God" and "saved" interchangeably. Jesus has taught that keeping the commandments is necessary for obtaining "eternal life".
01 Jan 10
1 edit
Originally posted by knightmeisterI see what you are saying, but I think much of the frustration comes from the fact that you and ToO live in different theological worlds. For a debate to happen, someone has to go play in the other sandbox for a bit. I don't see that happen in the discussions between you.
There are problems for those who argue for St Paul's interpretation , and there also problesm for those who go down ToOne's line. The whole point is that it's not clear cut and open to interpretation. There are contradictions all over the place.
The problem is that ToOne simply won't acdept that there are serious problems across the board for both sides. That's what makes him virtually impossible to debate with.
01 Jan 10
4 edits
Originally posted by ThinkOfOne====================================
Jaywill, there is nothing in the passage from Matthew that implies in any way that Jesus is speaking of "dispensational punishment". In fact, so far as I know, there is nothing in any of what Jesus taught to His followers while He walked the earth that points to "dispensational punishment" whatsoever.
Take a closer look at 50-51:
"the master of t ing the commandments is necessary for obtaining "eternal life".[/b]
Jaywill, there is nothing in the passage from Matthew that implies in any way that Jesus is speaking of "dispensational punishment". In fact, so far as I know, there is nothing in any of what Jesus taught to His followers while He walked the earth that points to "dispensational punishment" whatsoever.
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1.) The teaching of Jesus in the New Testament is not only the teaching of Jesus while He walked on the earth.
The teaching of Jesus would include His teaching after He ascended to heaven, for example His words in Acts and in the seven letters to the seven churches in Asia in Revelation 2,3.
2.) If we do restrict ourselves to the teaching of Jesus in His earthly ministry, ie. while He "walked the earth" we do see dispensational punishment in the synoptic Gospels.
The teaching and parable of an unforgiving servant in Matthew 18:21-35:
These are the words which indicate a dispensational punishment of one of the Lord's servants:
"The his master called him to him and said tp hi,m, Evil slave, all that debt I forgave you, because you begged me. Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave even as I had mercy on you?
And his master became angry and delivered him to the torturers until he would repay all that was owed. So also will My heavenly Father do to you if each of you does not forgive his brother from your hearts." (Matt. 18:32-25)
The words - delivered him to the torturers UNTIL HE WOULD REPAY all that he owed" show a punishment which is bounded, limited, until a terminating condition.
This proves Jesus taught of what I call "dispensational punishment". That is all I am going to write about it in this post.
01 Jan 10
Originally posted by ThinkOfOneAs you have shown repeatedly, you have no idea what His commandments are--- other than the nonsensical and tortured religion you've linked yourself with.
John 15:10
"If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love."
01 Jan 10
1 edit
Originally posted by jaywill[/b]I took your usage of "dispensational punishment" as necessarily including the concept that those who profess belief cannot be lost. My assertion was within this framework. Is this not true? The passage from Matthew 18 does not necessarily demonstrate support of this concept nor does the earlier passage from Matthew 24 nor does any teaching of Jesus insofar as I know.
[b]====================================
Jaywill, there is nothing in the passage from Matthew that implies in any way that Jesus is speaking of "dispensational punishment". In fact, so far as I know, there is nothing in any of what Jesus taught to His followers while He walked the earth that points to "dispensational punishment" whatsoever.
======== "dispensational punishment". That is all I am going to write about it in this post.
You know, Jaywill, you can choose to live in denial, but the fact is that the story of the rich young ruler clearly does not line up with your theory.
01 Jan 10
3 edits
Originally posted by jaywill[/b]Matthew 26:28
[b]======================================
There was a pre-existing theological framework set up in Judaism of the passover lamb and the sacrifice of the (spotless) lamb was supposed to cover the sins of the people and put them right with God. Confession of sin could take place regularly and the lamb was sacrificed and men were justified in the eyes of nsisting of (among other things) a redemptive death for the forgiveness of sinners.
For this is My blood of the covenant, which is being poured out for many for forgiveness of sins.
Interestingly enough, "aphesis", the word translated here as "forgiveness" literally means "freedom". So, literally it's "freedom from sin." Not "forgiveness", but "freedom".
“Freedom” as in the following:
"If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine; and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free...Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin. The slave does not remain in the house forever;"
How is the slave freed from committing sin? By continuing in His word. By knowing the truth. "The truth will make you free". Knowing the eternal (truth) will make you free. Jesus teaches freedom from committing sin.
02 Jan 10
2 edits
Originally posted by ThinkOfOne=============================
I took your usage of "dispensational punishment" as necessarily including the concept that those who profess belief cannot be lost. My assertion was within this framework. Is this not true? The passage from Matthew 18 does not necessarily demonstrate support of this concept nor does the earlier passage from Matthew 24 nor does any teaching of Jesus in ...[text shortened]... the fact is that the story of the rich young ruler clearly does not line up with your theory.[/b]
I took your usage of "dispensational punishment" as necessarily including the concept that those who profess belief cannot be lost. My assertion was within this framework. Is this not true? The passage from Matthew 18 does not necessarily demonstrate support of this concept nor does the earlier passage from Matthew 24 nor does any teaching of Jesus insofar as I know.
You know, Jaywill, you can choose to live in denial, but the fact is that the story of the rich young ruler clearly does not line up with your theory.
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I see nothing in this post giving a substantial rebuttal to what I wrote about Matthew 18:23-35.
Saying it is "not necessarily" is too easy if one does not present reasons.
The rich young ruler has already been addressed.
With man it is impossible. But with God the most difficult thing is possible. Mainly that the rich can enter into eternal life / into the kingom of God.
Thus grace is the working of God which can bring such as the dejected rich young ruler forword to the kingdom of God.
Both passages have been addressed.