Omnipotent, omniscient God

Originally posted by knightmeister
It stands to reason that God must be eternal in the Christian tradition . If he is only temporary then he will one day not exist which is preposterously out of synch with the Christian vision of God. If God is in time or "part of" time then he must be part of the universe or exist only in the universe. If this is so how does he create time and the uni ...[text shortened]... about your thoughts on Christianity the more I realise you have no idea who Jesus really is.

If God always has been and always will be, He is eternal. There is no requirement to have complete kowledge of the future.

I swear I have no idea how you manage to get so consistently twisted in your thinking.

Originally posted by Thequ1ck
Hasn't life taught us that there are many truths?

edit. Do you believe in a truth for how you should play chess?

Hasn't life taught us that there are many truths?
No. When?

Do you believe in a truth for how you should play chess?
In chess, I'm sure there's an absolute truth of how to play. It's demonstrable. Chess is a mathematical game of finite possibilities. There's a set of optimal moves that make the best possible game.

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
If God always has been and always will be, He is eternal. There is no requirement to have complete kowledge of the future.

I swear I have no idea how you manage to get so consistently twisted in your thinking.

Ok so we have got as far as the Christian God being eternal , that's a start at least. Now , there's every indication that Jesus believed that his Father knew all things and knew the number of hairs on everyone's head. God would also have to know everyone's life and thoughts intimately in order to judge accurately at the end of time. So it follows naturally that God is omniscient of all men's choices and actions. Since he is not on a timeline and eternal then he must know men's future actions as well.

I can't believe I'm having to explain this really.

Originally posted by knightmeister
Ok so we have got as far as the Christian God being eternal , that's a start at least. Now , there's every indication that Jesus believed that his Father knew all things and knew the number of hairs on everyone's head. God would also have to know everyone's life and thoughts intimately in order to judge accurately at the end of time. So it follows natu ...[text shortened]... now men's future actions as well.

I can't believe I'm having to explain this really.

You were doing fine until you made this illogical leap:
"Since he is not on a timeline and eternal then he must know men's future actions as well."

Up until the you only established a complete knowledge of past and present.

You're going to have to explain what you mean by "not on a timeline" and how complete kowledge of past and present necessitates complete knowledge of the future.

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
What is the scriptural evidence that God is necessarily omnipotent and/or omniscient?

Omnipotent presents no issues in my opinion on any level unless you
plan on attempting to resist God in a place He isn't going to allow it.
Kelly

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
What is the scriptural evidence that God is necessarily omnipotent and/or omniscient?

Omnipotent does not present issues either if it knowing all that can
be known, which leaves out that which cannot be.
Kelly

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
You were doing fine until you made this illogical leap:
"Since he is not on a timeline and eternal then he must know men's future actions as well."

Up until the you only established a complete knowledge of past and present.

You're going to have to explain what you mean by "not on a timeline" and how complete kowledge of past and present necessitates complete knowledge of the future.

You are going to have to explain what you mean by "the future". Don't you mean "your" future. The concepts of future past and present only make sense if you are moving through time. Because we are trapped in time then it's hard for us to imagine what eternity is.

For example , are you able to imagine what a being who has no beginning (and no cause) might be like? Do you have any conception of how utterly incredible the christian idea of God is? We are talking about a completely different form of existence.

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
But if the future has yet to happen, there is not yet anything to know.

Your conception of God creates many contradictions. It makes God incoherent. An incoherent god is not a god of truth.

I don't have a conception of God. I know God based on His own description of Himself. You on the otherhand have a conception of God because you choose not to accept or believe what He says about Himself. So you vainly try to imagine a god created in your own image. What else can you do? Until you recognise and acknowledge God you will search in vain for the truth about God. I do not say this as an insult or a put down. God is the supreme being who has created everything that exists. Only He can define Himself. And He has.

All I can do is keep repeating it.

Originally posted by KellyJay
Omnipotent does not present issues either if it knowing all that can
be known, which leaves out that which cannot be.
Kelly

What if the future cannot be known? This is my point. Does God make an explicit claim to have complete knowledge of the future? If God doesn't, then it's purely speculation. I'm not sure if it make sense to speculate things that end up creating contradictions.

Originally posted by knightmeister
You are going to have to explain what you mean by "the future". Don't you mean "your" future. The concepts of future past and present only make sense if you are moving through time. Because we are trapped in time then it's hard for us to imagine what eternity is.

For example , are you able to imagine what a being who has no beginning (and no cause) ...[text shortened]... e christian idea of God is? We are talking about a completely different form of existence.

Show me the verses where it says that God knows the complete future. So far as I know, God makes not such claim.

I'm thinking that if you could you would. So once again your conception of God is not based on what God says He is, but a conception of what you think he might be.

Originally posted by josephw
I don't have a conception of God. I know God based on His own description of Himself. You on the otherhand have a conception of God because you choose not to accept or believe what He says about Himself. So you vainly try to imagine a god created in your own image. What else can you do? Until you recognise and acknowledge God you will search in vain for the ...[text shortened]... ing that exists. Only He can define Himself. And He has.

All I can do is keep repeating it.

Show me the verses where God claims to have complete knowledge of the future. If God doesn't make such a claim, then it's left up to conjecture whether or not this is included.

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
What if the future cannot be known? This is my point. Does God make an explicit claim to have complete knowledge of the future? If God doesn't, then it's purely speculation. I'm not sure if it make sense to speculate things that end up creating contradictions.

I guess the more I think about that, the more it is some what of a
tough one.
Kelly

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
Show me the verses where it says that God knows the complete future. So far as I know, God makes not such claim.

I'm thinking that if you could you would. So once again your conception of God is not based on what God says He is, but a conception of what you think he might be.

Which future are you refering to , your's , Hitler's , Ghengis Khan's ? The notions of future , past , present only make sense if you are trapped on a timeline and exist as part of the universe. However, such a limited god cannot be the God that Jesus refers to who created the heavens and the earth. To an eternal God who created time and the universe itself your conceptions would seem puny.

You seem to have a problem with things that are logically implied from the Bible . You seem to want it all spelt out like some highway code or painting by numbers thing. Forget about the verses , try thinking it through for a change.

Originally posted by knightmeister
Which future are you refering to , your's , Hitler's , Ghengis Khan's ? The notions of future , past , present only make sense if you are trapped on a timeline and exist as part of the universe. However, such a limited god cannot be the God that Jesus refers to who created the heavens and the earth. To an eternal God who created time and the universe ...[text shortened]... or painting by numbers thing. Forget about the verses , try thinking it through for a change.

"Forget about the verses..."? "...logically implied from the Bible"? Did you ever consider why I simply point to the words of Jesus and you are compelled to try to extrapolate from them? Or to extrapolate from extrapolations of others? Or to extrapolate from extrapolations of extrapolations of others, etc.? You consistently resort to building these convoluted constructs in a vain attempt to prop up YOUR concepts.

Jesus spoke the truth. Truth is simple and elegant. If you lived in truth, you'd understand this.

You consistently demonstrate that you don't understand. That you don't live in truth.

I hope that someday you come to this realization.

Originally posted by KellyJay
I guess the more I think about that, the more it is some what of a
tough one.
Kelly

Yes it is. Man creates all these needlessly complex concepts. Truth is simple, elegant and beautiful.