Original Righteousness

Originally posted by jaywill
ahosney,

Good game. He whopped me folks.

Maybe I can speak to Christ's worship latter.

Originally posted by ahosyney
I'm waiting for you 🙂

May be if you follow Jesus, you can win.

God sees two men on the earth - Adam and Christ. In both men there is an inheritance. In Adam we inhereit sin and death. In Christ we inhererit divine life and righteousness.

"Therefore just as through one man sin entered into the world and through sin death; and this death passed on to all men because all have sinned - (Rom. 5:12)

"Just as" shows the parellel between what happened to us in Adam and what can happen to us in Christ. Some people call this inheriting of sin and death from Adam "Original Sin". It is not a term I have ever used. But I made a parellel phrase "Original Righteousness" todemonstrate that the same prinicple of inheritance operates in Christ Who is called "the second man". He is also called "the last Adam".

It matters where we are. We can be in Adam or we can have a transfer, thanks to the good news, and be transfered into Christ.

"For, if by the offense of one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One Jesus Christ," (v.17)

In the realm of Adam then righteousness is both imputed and imparted so that we can reign in the divine life of a new birth. People in Christ are put into a righteous position judicially and positionally. And people in Christ are joined organically with a growing divine seed of God planted within them.

We might say that Original Righteousness is both in the being in the right position and being the "soil" for the growth of the Righteous One within.

Originally posted by jaywill
God sees two men on the earth - Adam and Christ. In both men there is an inheritance. In Adam we inhereit sin and death. In Christ we inhererit divine life and righteousness.

[b]"Therefore just as through one man sin entered into the world and through sin death; and this death passed on to all men because all have sinned - (Rom. 5:12)

"Just a ...[text shortened]... e right position and being the "soil" for the growth of the Righteous One within.

Originally posted by ahosyney
What about the people before the Christ, they don't have any righteousness I think.

And again you give a scripture for the first part of you claim. But the second part , with no evidence.

Originally posted by jaywill
Would you like me to open a thread on self righteousness? I am more proud then you could ever imagine. That is why I need the Lord Jesus Christ as a Savior. I have no trust in my own self humility. I have to enjoy Christ Himself as my attitude in all things.

Do you deem yourself to be much more humble than me?

I guess real humble people like you d ...[text shortened]... r rationalizing why you should not trust in the love and redemption of Christ.

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
If you read through my posts, you'll see that I have not "formulated arguments against God and the Bible." However, I have questioned your interpretation.

If you read through your posts, you'll see how you talk out of both sides of your mouth in your zeal to try to prove your points. Your pride continues to ring quite clearly through all your posts. ...[text shortened]... omination unto him: [b]A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood,[/b]

I have just read through pretty much all of the pages of this thread. I notice ThinkofOne jumps in in #20 asking about if I think George Bush is walking by the divine nature.



ThinkofOne, I am waiting for you to point out LIES that I wrote.

I am waiting for you to justify the charge that I talked out of both sides of my mouth.

I'M WAITING. Examples ThinkofOne? Quotations ThinkofOne?

If you don't find specific examples are you man enough to apologize for calling me a liar?

We'll either see your exmples of my alleged "lies" or we'll see where the real pride is - if you will or will not retract your accusation of me being a liar.

Your move.

Originally posted by jaywill
Point out the lies.
Point out where I talked out of both sides of my mouth.

I would like specifics now and not vague accusations.

T: It hasn't been my experience that Christians have been any more righteous than non-Christians. Do you have any insight as to why so few Christians actually take Jesus Christ as their Lord and follow the Father?

Entry #20 was my initial answer to your statement of what you understood me to be saying. I think you should go back and read it carefully.

If there were things that were not clear then I take responsibility for that. There was no lying or twofacedness in my further posts.

Now to his question of yours above I will give you more response:

Many are not helped to grow. A prevailing attitude in Christianity is to receive your “ticket” to go to heaven. Therefore with many simply to reborn is to have arrived. Many do not have the realization that birth is a beginning of a process of growth.

Having said that, I would be not telling the fact if I said I do not know many believers whose exemplify the highest standard of morality of any people. It is not of themselves. It is of the Christ who lives within them. But early in my Christian life I specifically ask God to put me with brothers who could help me grow. He answered that prayer.


J: I know thousands of Christians who are walking and living by the divine nature.

T: Do you believe that George W Bush is walking and living by divine nature?
[/b]

George Bush is not one of the thousands that I have regular contact with in conferences or home meetings from house to house. I surmised that you were using a political figure as an acid test to determine who is righteous. Then it becomes a politcal debate. Which political policy comes up to the level of exemplifying a righteous Christian walk, is not my desire to debate.

I steered away from what I considered any possible political litmus test of righteousness based on a political platform. What else could you possibly mean by asking me about a political figure who as advertized rightly or wrongly to be a Christian?

I did not intend for my thread to develop into taking sides on politcal parties or platforms.


J: It is not my place to assume to put either my stamp of approval or critique of judgment on the other believers. I would prefer that you ask me about where I think I am in regards to walking and living by the divine nature.

You are willing to give your stamp of approval to thousands when it enhances your point, yet you feign humility when it doesn't.

These are people I meet with, people I have had personal contact with over the last 38 years. These are people whose daily lives I have observed. Are they perfect? No.

I latter added that I felt Bush and I as Christians could mutually learn something from one another. So eventually I did comment on that specific individual. Didn’t I?

Then again Christ walked by the Father for sure and mobs did not appreciate or recognize the divine nature in Him. I am assuming perhaps too much with you. How do I know that you would know righteousness if you saw it? Maybe God has sent some mature believer your way and you dismissed that one as no better than a common thief.


J: Humble people like you can afford to formulate lots of arguments against God and the Bible.

I have not formulated arguments against God and the Bible - only against your interpretation. Or do you profess to speak for God?

What interpretation is that? Interpretation of passages in Romans chapter 5 which I spoke of? Where’s the interpretation you are disagreeing with by asking that question? That is about George Bush's spiritual walk.

Is it that you do not believe anyone is walking by the divine nature? Is it that all people are walking by the divine nature?
Is it that George Bush could not possibly be walking by the divine nature? What interpretation of mine are you countering?


J: By believing in Christ and being joined to Him we can become the very righteousness of God in Christ. This is astounding. God not only judges our sins on Calvary. He not only forgets our sins. He not only removes our sins far away from us. He also looks upon the believer in Jesus as if he or she had never sinned.

You have not pointed out the contradiction by quoting this. But if you are saying that I contradict myself I point out to you that I also wrote this:

the realm of Adam then righteousness is both imputed and imparted so that we can reign in the divine life of a new birth. People in Christ are put into a righteous position judicially and positionally. And people in Christ are joined organically with a growing divine seed of God planted within them.

We might say that Original Righteousness is both in the being in the right position and being the "soil" for the growth of the Righteous One within.

God’s full salvation is of two aspects which I briefly outlined here:

1.) Righteous Position

2.) Righteous Disposition – “joined organically”

I used the phrase “righteous position judicially and positionally”. This is not a change in state but in position. One is put into a righteous position before God. The character has not yet been transformed,

I then went on to speak of “joined organically”. This joining is for transformation of the character. This is a matter of the growth of God within the disposition of the believer. That is why I discribed this second aspect believers being the “soil” for the growth of God.

So what is the speaking out of both sides of my mouth? Did I not indicate two sides to the Christian experience? The Christians that Paul wrote to that they had become the righteousness of God in Christ were the Corinthians. Obviously he mentioned that some of the were dispositionally still fleshly, fleshy, babes in Christ, natural, and soulish.

But positionally, they were made the rightouesness of God in Christ. And by the time God finishes with each believer each will be without spot and blemish before God. He is able to do it.

If I did not further develop this two-fold aspect of salvation I take responsibility for that. That is not lying or speaking out of both sides of my mouth.


J: People in Christ are put into a righteous position judicially and positionally. And people in Christ are joined organically with a growing divine seed of God planted within them.

Here again you fail to mention the lie or the contradiction. Quoting me is good. Quoting me does not establish that I lied unless you point out the contradictions.


J: God has granted you many happy days in your life. In spite of the problems, of which we all share, my God has alloted you many happy days. Did you give thanks to God today for His goodness to you?

Here is another quote with no explanation where the lie is or where the two faced speaking is.


J: Exclusivity? Do you have a philosophy which promises such universal blessing to the peoples of the earth ? Will your philosophy be the cause to wipe away the tears from the eyes of people from every tribe and nation on the earth? I doubt it.

Here is another instance where you simply quote me. No indication is given by you where the two facedness is in this quotation.


J: Your charge of exclusivity of my faith is a slander against Christ Who died for all.

Quite frankly, I'm not sure what your position is as to the exclusivity of God for Christians. You seem to argue both ways depending on what point you're trying to make.

Frankly I am not sure if you think that I believe that only Christians exist in the world. The EKKLESIA (church) is the called out ones. Are you a Universalist? Are you driving at that I am exclusive because I do not make the whole world the EKKLESIA? I plead guilty to that. But the burden is on you to show me that my understanding of the EKKLESIA is wrong Bible interpretation. Are you ready to show me that the EKKLESIA consist of the whole world?

Incidently, this fails the test also because I latter explicitly elaboraged WHAT was excluded in the eternal salvation. So you should have gotten from that explanation that I am not a Universalist. But that does not mean that I don’t recognize God’s care and blessing upon the people of the world.

In short, I never said that only those who partake of the divine nature of regeneration are the people God blesses at any time.

Here is where I clarified for you concerning the generality and speciality of salvation:

"And the nations shall walk by its light [ New Jerusalem ]; and the kings of the earth bring their glory into it. And its gates shall by no means be shut by day, for there will be no night there. And they will bring the glory and honor of the nations into it.

And anything common and he how makes an abomination and a lie shall by no means enter into it, but only those who are written in the Lamb's book of life" (See Rev. 21:24-27)

So I see "the kindness and severity of God". On one hand the symbolic gates of the eternal city are opened in four directions toward all the earth. That is very broad and very wide opened. On the other hand those who rejected the salvation of God will not enter into that kingdom.

So sin is excluded and rebellion is excluded. Unholiness is excluded and unrighteousness is excluded. And those who know Christ is the Lord but are afraid to trust Him will be lost. And those who reject His redemption ( I said reject. I did not speak of ignorance ), will have what they want … etc [/b]

In the matter of righteousness I outlined two aspects of it.

In the matter of exclusion verse inclusion I also outlined two aspects of that.

These were all posts written prior to you accusing me of lying and talking out of both sides of the mouth. I will recognize some underdeveloped concepts which were not greatly elaborated on. But in their basic presentation I gave you heads up on the differences.

Originally posted by jaywill
Maybe if I follow Jesus, He will humble me by letting me lose.

Praise Him.

Originally posted by kirksey957
You two, quit the oral game and play some damn chess. When it's over, get back with us and tell us how you did.

Originally posted by ahosyney
go back one page, I won

I got two queens at the end

Originally posted by kirksey957
OK, that settles it. Islam is better. Now go to bed, both of you.

Originally posted by jaywill
[b]
T: It hasn't been my experience that Christians have been any more righteous than non-Christians. Do you have any insight as to why so few Christians actually take Jesus Christ as their Lord and follow the Father?

Entry #20 was my initial answer to your statement of what you understood me to be saying. I think you should go back and read it care ...[text shortened]... aborated on. But in their basic presentation I gave you heads up on the differences.[/b]