29 Nov 06
Originally posted by Orange PeelIs that kind of like boasting in the Lord?
Maybe I misunderstand you here, but I don't think it's right to justify pride through Jesus.
Pride in Jesus is different. Pride in his life, how he helped the poor & the weak. Pride in the good things that other people did.
Pride in what you are standing up for and not backing down is only proportional to what you are standing for or against.
NOTHING WRONG WITH PRIDE... 🙂. (It's a catalyst)
29 Nov 06
2 edits
Originally posted by jaywillI don't know what I need to say to make my position clearer to you.
I don't think that you have made your position clear in this discussion. I think you have asked a few qiestions, made a few personal remarks, and generally held your cards close to the vest so as to let the other poster say a lot so there is a lot for you to critique.
I don't think you have been too generous to outline your position. and everyone kn ...[text shortened]... sonal spiritual journey I will no longer count as very significant contributions to the topic.
You asserted the following in your initial post:
By believing in Christ and being joined to Him we can become the very righteousness of God in Christ. This is astounding. God not only judges our sins on Calvary. He not only forgets our sins. He not only removes our sins far away from us. He also looks upon the believer in Jesus as if he or she had never sinned.
But something more is here. The believer is "made the righteousness of God in Him". The forgiven sinner can boast the she has now been made by God the righteousness of God in Christ.
I initially stated an observation and asked a question:
It hasn't been my experience that Christians have been any more righteous than non-Christians. Do you have any insight as to why so few Christians actually take Jesus Christ as their Lord and follow the Father?
You responded with the following:
I know thousands of Christians who are walking and living by the divine nature.
I took this to mean that you personally know thousands of people who are righteous. One can rightly claim that someone who acts unrighteous is not righteous. But to rightly claim that someone who acts righteously is in fact righteous, one must know what's in that person's heart, which is extremely difficult to ascertain if not humanly possible. A claim of "thousands" struck me as extremely disingenuous. Later you said, "It is not my place to assume to put either my stamp of approval or critique of judgment on the other believers" when asked if you believe that George W Bush is walking and living by divine nature. Yet you had no reservations about it being your place to put your "stamp of approval" on thousands. Once again, extremely disingenuous.
You also made the following statement:
Humble people like you can afford to formulate lots of arguments against God and the Bible.
This was also untrue. I had only questioned YOUR interpretation.
Later you also made this statement:
But just so you know. We Christians do not have to grovel introspectively when we are enlightened to our pride or any other sin. We have the blood of Jesus Christ which cleanses us from all sin.
Ever hear the expression, "too proud to beg"? Without introspection there cannot be a change of heart. Without a change of heart there is no repentance. Without repentance one cannot follow the will of the Father. The forgiveness of sins is not automatic. It requires repentance, as the following scripture states:
Luke 3:3
He went into all the country around the Jordan, preaching a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins.
Matthew 7:21-23
Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter into the Kingdom of Heaven; but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will tell me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, didn't we prophesy in your name, in your name cast out demons, and in your name do many mighty works?' Then I will tell them, 'I never knew you. Depart from me, you who work iniquity.'
I hope this clarifies my position.
29 Nov 06
6 edits
Originally posted by ThinkOfOne[/b]
I don't know what I need to say to make my position clearer to you.
You asserted the following in your initial post:
[b]By believing in Christ and being joined to Him we can become the very righteousness of God in Christ. This is astounding. God not only judges our sins on Calvary. He not only forgets our sins. He not only removes our sins far away fr rt from me, you who work iniquity.'
I hope this clarifies my position.
If you recall I spoke of positional righteousness and dispositional righteousness. When I said I know thousands of Christians who are living righteous lives I meant dispositionally righteous lives.
That means they have not just repented and placed in a righteous standing before God although their character has not been transformed yet. I have meet a substantial number of Christians over the years who have undergone some transformation.
The Christians grow according to the enlightenment in their conscience. We do not expect a person to become mature as soon as they are regenerated and placed into a righteous position as justified ones before God. We expect that as the light grows and the believer obeys deeper and deeper conviction in the conscience, growth occurs.
When I say I know thousands who are living righteous lives I mean I know thousands who are growing and are walking according to encreasing levels enlightenment in thier conscience. Of course I know many more who seem to be stagnant. In my view you asked about these and I answered you about these.
This will now be perhaps the third or fourth time I have explained about dispositional and positional righteousness.
The passage you quoted about many saying Lord Lord but being denied by the Lord does not concern eternal salvation. It concerns whether one is rewarded or disciplined for the reward of the millennial kingdom.
To make clear, God's purpose is not simply that we would be positionally justified. He wants us to grow in divine life, be transformed and built up together. This require dispositional righteous living through transformation. Those who cooperate will be rewarded. Those who do no cooperate will postpone that growth to a future time. At the future time the taste of one's relationship with Christ will be different from what it is in this age of grace. To those disciplined believers who did not grow dispositionally through santification, the Lord will say that they called Him Lord but He did not approve of their lawless deeds.
First Corinthians speaks of those saved as through fire. It speaks of those who will receive a reward and those who will suffer loss. The audience is the church in Corinth. The church in Corinth of course refers to Christians. And Christians have the matter of eternal salvation settled forever. They will never perish.
Just because justified believers in Jesus will never perish eternally does not mean that Christ cannot discipline them in this age and in the coming age also.
So there is no contradiction between what I have written and the verses which you point to.
29 Nov 06
Originally posted by jaywillDo you ever speculate that your religious beliefs are just an inordinately elaborate delusion?
If you recall I spoke of positional righteousness and dispositional righteousness. When I said I know thousands of Christians who are living righteous lives I meant dispositionally righteous lives.
That means they have not just repented and placed in a righteous standing before God although their character has not been transformed yet. I have meet ...[text shortened]...
So there is no contradiction between what I have written and the verses which you point to.[/b]
29 Nov 06
2 edits
Originally posted by PawnokeyholeWell, true faith seems always to have some element of doubt. This is part of the program and one gets use to it. Once you understand that there is aways a little room for the thought "But what if it is not really so?"
Do you ever speculate that your religious beliefs are just an inordinately elaborate delusion?
When you examine the acts of God throughout the Bible you will see that this was the case many times. God was faithful. God was true to His promise. But in spite of His great faithfulness His people often had a doubt. Once you regcognize that this is part of the process of faith it doesn't bother you too much.
One of the stories in the Bible that illustrates this well is the story of Gideon's fleecing of God in the book of Judges. That means the things He asked God to do to absolutely assure him that God would keep His promise. And God was quite accomodating with Gideon's insecurity. These stories are not garuantees that God will act the exact same way everytime. They are to show somthing about Himself for us to trust.
It is hard for me to think that I am totally deluded. I have seen Christ do too much with me over the years. I may not always understand His ways. Even Paul the Apostle said that he and his companion apostles dispaired of life they were so pressed and perplexed one time.
So sometimes I am perplexed. But when the Holy Spirit enters into your innermost being it is truly hard to not believe that the Triune God is real.
Man lost God because of a loss of trust and faith. It appears that the road BACK to God is the same way - through trust and faith.
01 Dec 06
2 edits
Originally posted by jaywillActually this is the first time you've used the terms 'positional righteousness' and 'dispostional righteousness'. While it's an interesting theory, a theory is all it is. Calling someone positionally righteous doesn't make them truly righteous. It's remarkable that you would try to present the positionally righteous as living righteous lives, when in fact they aren't. They would have to be positionally righteous for that. So the original observation and question still stand.
If you recall I spoke of positional righteousness and dispositional righteousness. When I said I know thousands of Christians who are living righteous lives I meant dispositionally righteous lives.
That means they have not just repented and placed in a righteous standing before God although their character has not been transformed yet. I have meet
So there is no contradiction between what I have written and the verses which you point to.[/b]
Your explanation of rewards, discipline, the "millennial kingdom" and salvation is also an 'interesting' theory. It's amazing what MAN can come up with.
01 Dec 06
2 edits
Originally posted by snowinscotlandNo, this convoluted theory of positional and dispositional righteousness, millennial kingdom, rewards, discipline, salvation, etc. It reads like some ill-conceived attempt to explain inconsistencies in the Bible.
....like the books of the bible? and all the theology behind them?
Call me crazy, but I think it's really quite simple:
Deny thyself and follow the Father.
02 Dec 06
1 edit
Originally posted by ThinkOfOneAre you saying that your six words are not the start of a process similar to one which happened many years ago, where MAN wrote down a lot of things, including social comment, wisdom re humans and human interaction, and over many years developed what is now known as 'theology' where all sort of complex explainations were developed and held to be 'the truth' or 'The Truth'?
No, this convoluted theory of positional and dispositional righteousness, millennial kingdom, rewards, discipline, salvation, etc. It reads like some ill-conceived attempt to explain inconsistencies in the Bible.
Call me crazy, but I think it's really quite simple:
Deny thyself and follow the Father.
Do you not think thatafter a couple of days/weeks/decades you will follow your 'simple' with 'fairly simple' and then onto 'you have to believe to understand' followed by 'you have not the background to understand' and then 'you are not an elder' and before you know it you have another church... - 'what do you mean you don't believe what I believe? - you are a heretic! - Go away from our society - take your chances with the beasts' ; perhaps even as far as 'Get the inquisition(s) - kill the unbeliever!'
No?
Well take a close look at history, my friend.
02 Dec 06
3 edits
Originally posted by ThinkOfOneYou are wrong on both counts.
Actually this is the first time you've used the terms 'positional righteousness' and 'dispostional righteousness'. While it's an interesting theory, a theory is all it is. Calling someone positionally righteous doesn't make them truly righteous. It's remarkable that you would try to present the positionally righteous as living righteous lives, when in fac salvation is also an 'interesting' theory. It's amazing what MAN can come up with.
It is God Who justifies. Only the first error do I care to address in this post though.
If God justifies one of his sins that person are justified. And that is the positional side of the redemptive work of Christ. "Who shall bring a charge against God's chosen ones? It is God who justifies. Who is he who condemns? It is Christ Jesus who died and, rather, who was raised, who is also at the right hand of God, who intercedes for us." (Rom. 8:33,34)
Since "a picture is worth a thousand words" the symbol of the Passover lamb in Exodus should be considered. The instructrions of God were that the people INSIDE the house with the blood of the lamb on the lentil and door of the house would be passed over. The poeple who obeyed slew the paschal lamb and put the blood on the outside of the house. Then they went inside to have the Passover feast.
When the judging angel came to slay the firstborn in Egypt he passed over the houses which had the blood on the doorway. The angel did not look inside of the house to see who was there, or whether they were good or bad people. Those who in faith applied the blood of the lamb were Passed Over when the judgment was executed. They were justified POSITIONALLY. They were in a justified position to be reconciled with the righteous God. And they were saved by their faith in His way of justification.
This is one part of God full salvation which I focus on in this post only. This is not the whole salvation. This is the positional side of that salvation. Judicially, they were justified and placed in a right position before God. And it is God, not you, not me, not the devil, not anyone else, who decides who is justified before Him.
It is open the strong basis and foundation of positional righteousness that man is now free from condemnation to go further into the tranformation of being which renders their disposition sanctified by God's indwelling life.
Once again Romans 5:10 brings out both aspects of God's full salvation - the positional reconciliation and the righteousness wrought into the character by God's dispensed life:
"For if we, being enemies, were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more we will be saved in His life, having been reconciled" (Rom. 5:10)
1.) Step one is to be reconciled to God through the death of His Son. This is positional.
2.) Step two us to be saved in the realm and sphere of the resurrected Son's divibe life. This life is imparted into the believers to transform them and save their being dispositionally so that we may spend eternity with God and with one another in love.
02 Dec 06
2 edits
Justification is to be declared righteous by God according to His standard of righteousness. The forgiven sinner is placed in Christ. Christ is not only a Person. Christ is a place. He is a righteous place. In Christ as the propitiation place a sinner is declared righteous by God according to God's standard of righteousness.
No one can condemn. God has the last word. Now God has all the time He needs to dispositionally transform that person by dispensing His Spirit into them for sanctification.
02 Dec 06
1 edit
Originally posted by ThinkOfOneI still don't think you have answered my question about who the Father is.
No, this convoluted theory of positional and dispositional righteousness, millennial kingdom, rewards, discipline, salvation, etc. It reads like some ill-conceived attempt to explain inconsistencies in the Bible.
Call me crazy, but I think it's really quite simple:
Deny thyself and follow the Father.
Do you mean the Father of all mankind? Are you a Universalist? C'mon and unfurl your flag.
Are you hiding out waiting for an opportune time to pounce down with it?
Bahai? Unitarian? Universalist? Your own tailored designed beliefs?
What "Father" are you refering to?
02 Dec 06
3 edits
"Deny thyself and follow the Father."
Would you mind terribly to quote that passage exactly?
Is this what you mean?
"Then JESUS said to His disciples, If anyone wants to come after ME, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow ME." (Matt. 16:24) [my emphasis]