A personal relationship with Christ is not earned. It is given. Why would anybody think that they can earn eternal life or a relationship with Christ?
King James Version
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Galatians 3: 21-26
Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.
But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
Originally posted by KellyJayThe good works is Christ in you. Is it not written in the scripture that we are the vessel? It is God who fills the vessel and it is God who empties the vessel as He sees fit.
As I have pointed out to you countless times, I believe we are very close
in what we believe along those lines. That said, there is danger as you do
describe it, saying you love the Lord and nothing in your life reflects it, and
just as deadly, proving you love the Lord, but not knowing Him. Neither will
see you to the end as Jesus pointed out to those ...[text shortened]... ting neither of you are
not right with God, that is between you and God, not you and me.
Kelly
Is it not God who lives in you when you receive Him? And what is God's nature? Love!!!
Compassion, love, reaching from the heart- it is Christ dwelling in you, reaching out from you.
Originally posted by KingOnPointA personal relationship with Christ is both earned and given. All you have to do to understand this, is to look at your own relationships. You give your heart to the love of your life. Yet to grow deeper in this you have to work on that relationship.
A personal relationship with Christ is not earned. It is given. Why would anybody think that they can earn eternal life or a relationship with Christ?
King James Version
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Galatians 3: 21-26
Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness sho ...[text shortened]... no longer under a schoolmaster.
For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
Do you think your relationship with God will be any different?
Pudgenik,
A relationship with Christ cannot be earned. God gives the gifts that a Christian receives including any relationship that a Christian has.; There is no way to work and deserve the actual relationship as your reward. Sinners have no merits to deserve fellowship with God. Christ alone earned salvation for all people.
King James Version
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Ephesians 2: 8, 9
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Not of works, lest any man should boast.
I Corinthians 15: 17
And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.
Romans 8: 11
But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
Pudgenik,
There is also:
King James Version
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Romans 11: 5, 6
Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
Romans 11:17-20
And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
Originally posted by KingOnPointChrist was not alone on the cross, we were all with Him. It was Christ who took it upon himself, but we were all there too.
Pudgenil,
A relationship with Christ cannot be earned. God gives the gifts that a Christian receives including any relationship that a Christian has.; There is no way to work and deserve the actual relationship as your reward. Sinners have no merits to deserve fellowship with God. Christ alone earned salvation for all people.
King James Version
...[text shortened]... p Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
I don't think you understand what I mean by working for your relationship. In your personal life, you can not sit idly by and expect your relationship to grow. Christ certainly didn't think so either. Did He not pray often. Maybe prayer is nothing to you, therefore being in the presence of God would mean nothing as well.
Taking time to be in the presence of God, (I don't mean just spitting out the words) but really BEING there: heart, mind and soul, in prayer and in His presence. PRAYING! That is a form of working on your relationship with God. And there are many, many other instances in scripture, of all who sought to be closer to God. They all worked on that relationship.
You can't fall in love by doing nothing.
Pudgenik,
Are you talking about being forgiven of sins on a regular basis so that there will be nothing between God and you?
What I am trying to say is that the relationship is given to you as a believer. It is a gift. Relationship to God is a gift. I don't want RajK, you, or anyone thinking they can earn relationship to God by doing righteousness.
I am not disagreeing with you about <b>fellowship</b> with God. I am saying, though, that righteousness of a single Christian will not birth that child into eternal life due to earning eternal life. A Sinner will never earn the relationship himself or herself has to God. It is Christ who removes the block for that relationship. After you have the relationship to start with, you can continue in fellowship.
I am not saying to not live for God so that fellowship will be maintained. It is like a a parent and a son, or a parent and a daughter. The man and woman parents are the biological parents of a boy or girl. If the child sins against the parents, the child will not cease to be a son or daughter. The fellowship of the child with the parents may be damaged, but the birth of the child remains.
If you are true believer in Christ, then continue with seeking fellowship with God. Be sincere.
Originally posted by KellyJayI would tend to think that the guy who does the good works is the one who knows Christ. I can quote two clear Bible passages off the top of my head to support that. Christ in Matt 25 said that if you help those in need, that is tantamount to helping him, Christ. Therefore you know Christ and Christ knows you. That is what a personal relationship is about.
As I have pointed out to you countless times, I believe we are very close
in what we believe along those lines. That said, there is danger as you do
describe it, saying you love the Lord and nothing in your life reflects it, and
just as deadly, proving you love the Lord, but not knowing Him. Neither will
see you to the end as Jesus pointed out to those ...[text shortened]... ting neither of you are
not right with God, that is between you and God, not you and me.
Kelly
Next James said Jas 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
Good works is a demonstration of faith.
Now in your passage which you usually quote of Christ saying that he never knew certain people, is not applicable to where a person does good works. Obviously those people did not do good works as defined by Christ. Notice Christ said they were workers of iniquity and were not following or obeying Christ commandments as in the very next verse we see:
And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock .. (Matthew 7:23-24 KJV)
The wise man builds his house on the rock of Christ's commandments.
Originally posted by KingOnPointThe relationship with your spouse, if you are married, is my reference to our relationship with God. (Now i'm not debased thinking of a sexual relationship) When i first met my future wife, marrage was the furthest thing from my mind. But i was surprized how must i had in common with her. As we got together more, i found myself falling in love. It wasn't a relationship that already was, it was something that took time to build.
Pudgenik,
Are you talking about being forgiven of sins on a regular basis so that there will be nothing between God and you?
What I am trying to say is that the relationship is given to you as a believer. It is a gift. Relationship to God is a gift. I don't want RajK, you, or anyone thinking they can earn relationship to God by doing righteousness ...[text shortened]... If you are true believer in Christ, then continue with seeking fellowship with God. Be sincere.
This is the relationship we have with God. When first meeting Him, now He is already all about us, but we need to grow in Him. What is more, God wants us to not just grow in Him, and not just be friends with Him, but to love Him, deeply.
In the scripture, we see how Jesus is always going to the Father. He goes off to pray. Or even on the cross, reaching out to the Father.
When we recieve Jesus, what takes place in us, is Jesus, through us, always seeking the Father. It could be said, the works i do is not i, but Jesus. It is Jesus, in us reaching out to the Father.
Originally posted by KingOnPointOn your first question. Yes, strive to have nothing separating you and God. Be one with Him, always.
Pudgenik,
Are you talking about being forgiven of sins on a regular basis so that there will be nothing between God and you?
What I am trying to say is that the relationship is given to you as a believer. It is a gift. Relationship to God is a gift. I don't want RajK, you, or anyone thinking they can earn relationship to God by doing righteousness ...[text shortened]... If you are true believer in Christ, then continue with seeking fellowship with God. Be sincere.
Originally posted by PudgenikI'd have to disagree with this some what!
The good works is Christ in you. Is it not written in the scripture that we are the vessel? It is God who fills the vessel and it is God who empties the vessel as He sees fit.
Is it not God who lives in you when you receive Him? And what is God's nature? Love!!!
Compassion, love, reaching from the heart- it is Christ dwelling in you, reaching out from you.
Christ in me is the beginning, not the end of what God is doing, because
Christ is in me I can follow the Spririt of God while without the Spirit of
God we are all just walking around in our flesh. In our flesh we cannot
please God our flesh is at odds with God. Walking in the flesh there is a
way that may seem right to us, but the end is death.
As we grow in Christ, as know Him better, taking His yoke upon us we
will be doing the works He has for us as a by product of having the
Spirit of God within us. It is not the end where we can sit back and say
we have arrived, it is again the beginning of our relationship with God.
Kelly
Originally posted by Rajk999Doing works is just doing works, doing the works that God has for us
I would tend to think that the guy who does the good works is the one who knows Christ. I can quote two clear Bible passages off the top of my head to support that. Christ in Matt 25 said that if you help those in need, that is tantamount to helping him, Christ. Therefore you know Christ and Christ knows you. That is what a personal relationship is about.
...[text shortened]... (Matthew 7:23-24 KJV)[/i]
The wise man builds his house on the rock of Christ's commandments.
can only be done while in God following His Spirit. People can put the
cart before the horse, where if they are doing good things, they think
that is enough God must accept them. That however is not the case,
that would be attempting to force God to allow them into Heaven, into
His Kingdom on the merits of their effort.
I AM NOT saying that is what you are suggesting! I believe we both
agree that following the Spirit of God we will be doing the works that
God has for us. That can only be done in Christ, so the relationship must
be there before the good works can begin. Which is to say that the works
we do in Christ are not to earn our way in, but only to obey Him, because
He is our Lord.
Kelly
Originally posted by KellyJayI not sure that the statement 'good works can only be done in Christ' is Biblical. If you have a reference to support that I would be interested in seeing it.
Doing works is just doing works, doing the works that God has for us
can only be done while in God following His Spirit. People can put the
cart before the horse, where if they are doing good things, they think
that is enough God must accept them. That however is not the case,
that would be attempting to force God to allow them into Heaven, into
His Ki ...[text shortened]... e do in Christ are not to earn our way in, but only to obey Him, because
He is our Lord.
Kelly
Neither am I one to try to determine why people do good works. That to me is the job of Christ. so let him judge.
Originally posted by Rajk999The bottom line of my statement wasn't that good works can only be in
I not sure that the statement 'good works can only be done in Christ' is Biblical. If you have a reference to support that I would be interested in seeing it.
Neither am I one to try to determine why people do good works. That to me is the job of Christ. so let him judge.
Christ, it was that good works done in the flesh will be meaningless, since
nothing done in the flesh can please God. There will always be some type
of corruption with it.
I'll give you some scripture still though.
Kelly
Originally posted by Rajk999To give you some scriptural support for my views on work and God here
I not sure that the statement 'good works can only be done in Christ' is Biblical. If you have a reference to support that I would be interested in seeing it.
Neither am I one to try to determine why people do good works. That to me is the job of Christ. so let him judge.
are some points that I believe touch it good enough for you to at least
understand my views and how I get them. To begin with, I’m not
debating what a ‘good work’ is. A work if it is good, will be so no matter
who does it; however, that does not mean that reason the work was
done will be with goodness at its root or cause.
Look at human dating, some guys will ask a girl out, shower her with
gifts, maybe a meal, a movie, or maybe dancing something along those
lines, than due to the expense he put into her will want something in
return, a wise girl/woman will tell him to stick it in his ear she owes him
nothing! It is so with God and us too, God is Holy, His Kingdom is too,
and for us to think we can make Him owe us a place in the Holy of Holy
because we did some good works here is laughable as if we could ever
do enough to earn or buy our way in.
The root cause of my view are as follows:
Romans 8:7-9New International Version (NIV)
7 The mind governed by the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so. 8 Those who are in the realm of the flesh cannot please God.
9 You, however, are not in the realm of the flesh but are in the realm of the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, they do not belong to Christ.
Without God in our lives we are left with only one option that is our own
devices, walking around in our flesh. We cannot please God in this
manner, it will never happen! You want to do the Work of God, you do it
with God, or you are on your own, in your own devices.
John 6:27-29New International Version (NIV)
27 Do not work for food that spoils, but for food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give you. For on him God the Father has placed his seal of approval.”
28 Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the works God requires?”
29 Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”
As I pointed out to someone else, getting Christ in our lives is the
beginning, not the end! It is where we start to know God, where start to
grasp what He is really like. Jesus told us to take His yoke upon us and
learn from Him. A yoke is a piece of equipment used for work, it is our
walking with Christ doing the things He has for us, there we learn from
Him, that is where this will all take place. We can rest from trying to
earn His favor, He died for us while we were yet sinners that has been
finished. So what we now have to look forward to is our walk with Him,
resting from our labors as we do the works God has for us.
Our works in this life are not for man’s eyes but Gods, anyone who is
trumpeting how righteous they are due to their works are simply getting
the only reward they will ever get, man’s attention.
Matthew 11:28-30New International Version (NIV)
28 “Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. 29 Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. 30 For my yoke is easy and my burden is light.”
Matthew 6:2-4New International Version (NIV)
2 “So when you give to the needy, do not announce it with trumpets, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and on the streets, to be honored by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full. 3 But when you give to the needy, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, 4 so that your giving may be in secret. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.
I hope this helps you understand my views.
Kelly