Originally posted by jaywill1. They translate it that way because they want to soften the effect of what it says, to worship the Son.
[b]=====================================
But when he again brings his Firstborn into the inhabited earth, he says: “And let all God’s angels do obeisance to him.” Heb 1:6 - New world translation of the Holy Scriptures
=======================================
They translate it that way because they want to soften the effect of what it says, t
"the last Adam became a life giving Spirit" (1 Cor. 15:45) [/b]
i see so putting the verse within the context of the entire bible and seeing how a word is used elsewhere means absolutely nothing to you? typical trinitariam, mind like concrete, all mixed up and hardened.
2. he is called the first-born because he was created, that is why it states the firstborn of all creation, perhaps this FACT escapes your notice, perhaps you do not want to see it, who can tell.
3. i dont really think you have any idea what the new covenant is, or you would not have uttered those words, indeed, which covenant are you talking about, for there are many, the Abrahamic covenant, the Davidic covenant, the Law covenant etc etc, what is more your inability to reconcile them with Christ because of your tradition is in no way a basis for projecting this ignorance on to Jehovahs Witnesses and in case you were unaware, we have abandoned many of Russels teachings as our understanding has become more fuller. Can we say the same about the trinitarians, stuck with a dogma from the fifth century, i think not, hypocrisy, well who can say?
4.your list is an utter joke, a leper thanks Christ and it is worship, Peter felt a reverence after Christ calmed a storm and it is construed as worship, Christ heals a person, he thanks him and it is worship, what utter nonsense.
here is the truth of the matter, the miracles were intended as a portent of what will happen when Christs Kingdom will eventually oust the satanic system and utter in a paradise. The miracles gave evidence that Christ was receiving power from God through the agency of the Holy spirit thus identifying his as Gods representative, or have you never read?
(Luke 7:14-17) . . .With that he approached and touched the bier, and the bearers stood still, and he said: “Young man, I say to you, Get up!” And the dead man sat up and started to speak, and he gave him to his mother. Now fear seized them all, and they began to glorify God, saying: “A great prophet has been raised up among us,” and, “God has turned his attention to his people.” And this news concerning him spread out into all Judea and all the surrounding country.
You shall notice that because of it, they held Christ to be God incarnate??????? no, they held him to be a great prophet. You will also notice the effect that it had on the people, they ;'turned ', their attention to God, and that God, not Christ was given glory. This is also the case in many other instances. Indeed if you read the accounts about Moses, you will see the very same pattern.
As i stated i would rather be encouraged and to give encouragement than to enter into tiresome and fruitless debates Jaywill about something we can never agree upon. I am happy indeed to discuss the life of Christ and the many things he did, his teachings, what they mean for us in a modern context, how their application effects our lives, how indeed we can become better Christians, more loving, but these fights about the trinity i could do without.
========================
1. They translate it that way because they want to soften the effect of what it says, to worship the Son.
i see so putting the verse within the context of the entire bible and seeing how a word is used elsewhere means absolutely nothing to you? typical trinitariam, mind like concrete, all mixed up and hardened.
=============================
J.N Darby's translation reads "worship him" as well as many other good English versions. I trust that. Your New World Translation "translators" have never had the courage to come forward to tell the world who they are.
It appears humility. But I think the real reason is they do not want to be exposed as unqualified and uncredentialed as they are.
Do the inner circle of Kingdom Hall teachers even know who these "translators" of the NWT were? Somebody over there must know.
================================
2. he is called the first-born because he was created, that is why it states the firstborn of all creation, perhaps this FACT escapes your notice, perhaps you do not want to see it, who can tell.
=================================
It has NOT escaped us that the MAN Jesus, because He is a MAN is a part of the creation of God. God CREATED MAN Gen. 1:26,27).
To deny that Jesus is a part of the creation is to deny the incarnation. But the MAN is GOD become a man = "The Word was God ... And the Word became flesh" (John 1:1,14)
Because He is God cothed in creation - humanity, flesh - He is the Firstborn of creation. This would be true if He were the first thing created in time or the LAST thing created in time. Regardless of when that man came into being, beause He is God become a man He is the Firstborn of all creation.
Now you seem to be ignorant of the OTHER aspects in which Christ is the FIRSTBORN from the dead, which passages I clearly demonstrated to you. He is the BEGINNING ... the Firstborn from the dead also.
=================================
3. i dont really think you have any idea what the new covenant is, or you would not have uttered those words, indeed, which covenant are you talking about, for there are many, the Abrahamic covenant, the Davidic covenant, the Law covenant etc etc, what is more your inability to reconcile them with Christ because of your tradition is in no way a basis for projecting this ignorance on to Jehovahs Witnesses and in case you were unaware, we have abandoned many of Russels teachings as our understanding has become more fuller. Can we say the same about the trinitarians, stuck with a dogma from the fifth century, i think not, hypocrisy, well who can say?
=====================================
I know what the new covenant is.
But what teachings of Charles Russell have the JWs renounced then for a "fuller" understanding ? I don't know much about that, except that they probably had to renounce some of his failed predictions.
========================
4.your list is an utter joke, a leper thanks Christ and it is worship, Peter felt a reverence after Christ calmed a storm and it is construed as worship, Christ heals a person, he thanks him and it is worship, what utter nonsense.
=================================
Give it up Robbie. You can talk about obeisance and reverence and homage etc. You can switch words around. You can't rub it out. You can't twist it out, erase it, or redefine it with other more suitable words.
They worshipped the Son of God and we do also.
===========================
As i stated i would rather be encouraged and to give encouragement than to enter into tiresome and fruitless debates Jaywill about something we can never agree upon. I am happy indeed to discuss the life of Christ and the many things he did, his teachings, what they mean for us in a modern context, how their application effects our lives, how indeed we can become better Christians, more loving, but these fights about the trinity i could do without.
=====================================
Sounds loving and magnanimus. You are not my Christian brother. As long as you oppose my Lord how can we be "brothers in the Lord".
I do not hate you. But I know that an enemy has sown the tares among the wheat. I do not presume to go through the world and root out the tares from the midst of the wheat. But I do admonish you that the angels of God will do that job. So you better be sure.
"And His disciples came to HIm, saying, Make the parable of the tares of the field clear to us.
And He answered and said, He who sows the good seed is the Son of Man; And the field is the world; and the good seed, these are the sons of the kingdom; and the tares are the sons of the evil one;
"And the enemy who sowed them is the devil; and the harvest is the consummation of the age; and the reapers are angels.
Therefore just as the tares are collected and burned up with fire, so will it be at the consummation of the age.
The Son of Man will send His angels and they will collect out of His kingdsom all the stumbling blocks and those who practice lawlessness,
And will cast them into the furnace of fire. In that place there will be the weeping and the gnashing of teeth. Then the righteous will shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of thier Father.
He who has ears to hear, let him hear." (Matt.13: 36b-43)
We better be sure Robbie. The wheat sown by Christ and he tares sown by the enemy grow together in the world. For a length of time it is hard to see the difference. And Christ said to His disciples not to try to ride the world of false Christians.
But the tares were sown in order to FRUSTRATE the wheat from growing. The long suffering of God will come to an end some day. The nominal and false believers will be gathered by the angels and thrown into the furnace of fire.
You say Jesus Christ is not the God Who became a man ? The New Testament teaches me that you are like the tares sown in the world amidst the wheat, planted by the enemy of God.
If I called you "Christian brother" I would not be doing you any favor but adding to your deception. So you should repent of this rebellion against the New Testament. As a friend that is the best advice I can give you because it is the truth.
It is not a matter of confessing "Trinity". It is a matter of receiving Christ the Lord as your God.
Hi Barstud.
"Matt 12:36 But I tell you that men will have to give account on the day of
judgement for every careless word they have spoken."
The day of judgement is never going to happen.
The day of judgement I
I for one will be be pushing myself to the front of the queue to get this God
to give account for all the misery, poverty and total depair he has created.
And that is just me. He is going to have to face a lot of awkward questions
from a lot of jacked off people.
He must have realised on Murder One when Cain slew Abel that he had perhaps
made a mistake.
"These people actually kill each other - I thought only I had the power
over life and death."
So he turns his back and walk away. Most likely off to some other quadrant
of 'his' universe tampering with things.
The day of judgement II
Just consider for one second what it will be like whan ALL the dead suddenly rise.
The is no clause in any will that I know off that states in the event of the dead
person rising then their property and wealth is still forfeit.
They are going to want it all back. There will be some huge family fueds
going back over possibly 30 generations.
He is going to need a massive team of lawyers to sort this one out.
(and where is God going to get lawyers from?....most of them end up in the other place) 😉
Originally posted by greenpawn34God can examine in judgment 100 billion people in one moment simultaneously if He wishes to.
Hi Barstud.
"Matt 12:36 But I tell you that men will have to give account on the day of
judgement for every careless word they have spoken."
The day of judgement is never going to happen.
The day of judgement I
I for one will be be pushing myself to the front of the queue to get this God
to give account for all the misery, poverty and tot ...[text shortened]... (and where is God going to get lawyers from?....most of them end up in the other place) 😉
We are dealing here with God, with infinite power and knowledge.
There is one Advocate - Jesus Christ the Righteous.
You are not my Christian brother. As long as you oppose my Lord how can we be "brothers in the Lord" - Jaywill
yes you are correct i am not your Christian brother and as for opposing your lord, whoever that may be, i have dedicated my life to the spreading of the good news of Gods Kingdom, in imitation of Christ, through a public ministry, as outlined by Christ and emphasised by Paul. Indeed when either you or any member of Christendom deems me worthy enough to visit my home with a scriptural message of comfort or encouragement then we can talk about being brothers in the lord.
(Luke 11:23) He that is not on my side is against me, and he that does not gather with me scatters.
you see Jaywill, when one has engaged in a public ministry one learns to deal with persons as human beings and regardless of whether they are our brothers or not, whether they are Hindus, Muslims, Atheists or whatever we can offer encouragement, for which one of us is not facing some problems? When Paul visited the Athenians, who were an idolatrous lot, did he not commend them for their godly devotion? Albeit ill directed?
(Acts 17:16) . . .Now while Paul was waiting for them in Athens, his spirit within him came to be irritated at beholding that the city was full of idols.
(Acts 17:22-23) . . .“Men of Athens, I behold that in all things you seem to be more given to the fear of the deities than others are. For instance, while passing along and carefully observing your objects of veneration I also found an altar on which had been inscribed ‘To an Unknown God.’ Therefore what you are unknowingly giving godly devotion to, this I am publishing to you.
(Acts 17:28) . . .For by him we have life and move and exist, even as certain ones of the poets among you have said, ‘For we are also his progeny.’
Originally posted by robbie carrobie=======================================
You are not my Christian brother. As long as you oppose my Lord how can we be "brothers in the Lord" - Jaywill
yes you are correct i am not your Christian brother and as for opposing your lord, whoever that may be, i have dedicated my life to the spreading of the good news of Gods Kingdom, in imitation of Christ, through a public ministry, as out ...[text shortened]... d exist, even as certain ones of the poets among you have said, ‘For we are also his progeny.’
yes you are correct i am not your Christian brother and as for opposing your lord, whoever that may be, i have dedicated my life to the spreading of the good news of Gods Kingdom, in imitation of Christ, through a public ministry, as outlined by Christ and emphasised by Paul.
======================================
You should go back to the New Testament and read that it is not to IMITATE Christ. It is to have Christ living in you.
A poodle can imitate a man walking. A chimp can be dressed up as a man. This is imitation.
Paul spoke of Christ living in us - "It is no longer I who live but Christ who lives in me." (Gal 2:20)
Do not appear before God telling Him that you tried to "imitate" Jesus. He is looking to it you are washed in the blood of Jesus and have received Jesus as the life giving Spirit into your being.
That is what Paul talked about. And Paul got it from Jesus. Your best friend is the one who tells you the truth.
============================
Indeed when either you or any member of Christendom deems me worthy enough to visit my home with a scriptural message of comfort or encouragement then we can talk about being brothers in the lord.
(Luke 11:23) He that is not on my side is against me, and he that does not gather with me scatters.
you see Jaywill, when one has engaged in a public ministry one learns to deal with persons as human beings and regardless of whether they are our brothers or not, whether they are Hindus, Muslims, Atheists or whatever we can offer encouragement, for which one of us is not facing some problems? When Paul visited the Athenians, who were an idolatrous lot, did he not commend them for their godly devotion? Albeit ill directed?
(Acts 17:16) . . .Now while Paul was waiting for them in Athens, his spirit within him came to be irritated at beholding that the city was full of idols.
(Acts 17:22-23) . . .“Men of Athens, I behold that in all things you seem to be more given to the fear of the deities than others are. For instance, while passing along and carefully observing your objects of veneration I also found an altar on which had been inscribed ‘To an Unknown God.’ Therefore what you are unknowingly giving godly devotion to, this I am publishing to you.
(Acts 17:28) . . .For by him we have life and move and exist, even as certain ones of the poets among you have said, ‘For we are also his progeny.’
=========================================
I let you have the last word. But what I said I mean. Your best friend is the one who tells you the truth.
And I would come to your house. You don't need to imitate Christ. You need to receive Christ into your heart as a living Person. Then you will be saved.
A real FRIEND is the man who tells you the truth.
There is no other name under heaven by which we MUST be saved.
You MUST be born again.
in the immortal words of 2pac,
If I upset you, don't stress
Never forget, that God hasn't finished with me yet
if our Christianity does not make us more loving, then are we not inclined to ask, what is its purpose? please think about this thing, we should look for the potential in people for it appears to me that's what Christ did.
I refuse to be judged along with 100 billion other people.
I want a face to face meeting. I want my day in court.
Most people will appeal. I will.
He is going to have to shift through billions of appeals.
And believe you me, that will take longer than a mere second.
Have you seen the hand writting of some of the people he has created?
Judgement Day is going to cause too much hassle and we know from
bitter experience he is not into hassle.
He just sits back and let's things happen.
And some of the things he has allowed to let happen need explaining.
And each and every one of the 100 billion souls who get judged in
a mere second deserve an explanantion.
Do the maths.
30 seconds per soul, (with me it will take longer, I'll ask questions).
30 seconds * 100 Billion = approx 30,000 years.
So we are going to stand in a queue for 30,000 years waiting for explanations.
I'm not looking forward to that bit.
You will get pushing and shoving, queue jumping. And what if the person
next to you smells. Some of these people have been dead an awfully long time.
You going to have to stand next to a dead come alive again smelly person
for 30,000 years who most likely has never heard of television.
What you going to talk about?
Originally posted by greenpawn34bring your magnetic chess set pawn dude 🙂
I refuse to be judged along with 100 billion other people.
I want a face to face meeting. I want my day in court.
Most people will appeal. I will.
He is going to have to shift through billions of appeals.
And believe you me, that will take longer than a mere second.
Have you seen the hand writting of some of the people he has created?
Ju ...[text shortened]... erson
for 30 years who most likely has never of television.
What you going to talk about?
- Joined
- 10 Jan 08
- Moves
- 19034
I SEE THE LIGHT... south africa TWO : france ONE 😲😀
so now that we've discovered that there actually is a god... whose god is it? surely a christian god wouldn't answer my prayers given my history of bashing christianity.
so we're looking for a god that would help me, who dislikes christianity and hates the french. are you thinking what i'm thinking?
PRAISE ALLAH!!!
Originally posted by trev33All hail trev!! You got to hand him this one🙂
I SEE THE LIGHT... south africa TWO : france ONE 😲😀
so now that we've discovered that there actually is a god... whose god is it? surely a christian god wouldn't answer my prayers given my history of bashing christianity.
so we're looking for a god that would help me, who dislikes christianity and hates the french. are you thinking what i'm thinking?
PRAISE ALLAH!!!