Plumb line, Spirit level, yard stick, evil

Originally posted by finnegan
You are mistaken and perhaps have not encountered alternatives. In particular, the classical Greek and Roman philosophers explored and debated a range of approaches to the fundamental questions of how to live a good life (and what that might be). The most attractive, entertaining and undogmatic account I have recently encountered is a book about the essayis ...[text shortened]... s to be a theocracy then we are in for one hell of a fight. It has been tried already you know!

I'm not frightened over any of this.
Personally I believe God is doing a work on this planet and at the end of it
evil will be dealt with forever. I believe that evil is just a small speed bump
in eternity and when it is shown clearly for what it is, it will not come back.
There will be no need to debate the ends and out of behavior on if we should
or shouldn’t do this or that.
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
I can justify myself breaking any rule I place on myself with little to no effort.
I can justify myself breaking any rule you make on myself with even less.

And I agree. I see theists doing exactly that all the time. They break any rule they like, and because they see it as somebody elses rule, they readily justify breaking it.

What I don't get, is why you think theists have rules and atheists do not.

Originally posted by KellyJay
I'm not frightened over any of this.
Personally I believe God is doing a work on this planet and at the end of it
evil will be dealt with forever. I believe that evil is just a small speed bump
in eternity and when it is shown clearly for what it is, it will not come back.
There will be no need to debate the ends and out of behavior on if we should
or shouldn’t do this or that.
Kelly

to get rid of evil we would have to know and all agree on what evil is. as evil is a subjective thing, full of shades of grey, the concept of evil is an over simplification of highly complex human emotions and how they are perceived by others.
how is god going to achieve this what will he have to change inside us to make it work, what will he switch off?

Originally posted by KellyJay
[b]Have you ever heard of “SELF-discipline”?
Or “independent thought”?
Or “personal sense of responsibility”?
Or “reason”?

Yes, after spending some time here you think that everyone shares your
views upon how they need to act?
Kelly[/b]

“...after spending some time here you think that everyone shares your
views upon how they need to act? ...”

why have you suddenly gone completely off-topic? And NO, I don't think everyone shares my view on how we should act and I never implied otherwise.
In fact, if anything, I may have arguably implied the exact opposite with the “we have the intelligence and INDEPENDENT thinking to judge for ourselves what is right and how we should think” (my emphasis) comment -people thinking independently generally means they form a wide variety of conflicting views.

You haven't made any counter-claim against my claim in that post. Does that mean you admit that we ( atheists and the more rational theists ) generally acknowledge that we do generally have a morel conscience, empathy, sympathy and a sense of responsibility thus do not require some book nor authority nor a threat of some sort of 'divine' punishment to tell us how we morally should behave nor how we should think and that we have the intelligence and independent thinking to judge for ourselves what is right and how we should think?
Is there any part of that that you would disagree with and, if so, exactly which part and what is your counterargument?

Originally posted by twhitehead
And I agree. I see theists doing exactly that all the time. They break any rule they like, and because they see it as somebody elses rule, they readily justify breaking it.

What I don't get, is why you think theists have rules and atheists do not.

I never said Atheist do not have some of the same rules like Theist, I have
said they don't have all the same types! The difference is that the things
that God says don't do or to do, those are things I do not get to change
because I want to. If I do I'm breaking them and I'll be held accountable
to God for that, they do not come from me or another like me. I will stand
before God knowning for example that if I do not forgive others as He has
forgiven me I will not be forgiven. I cannot change that because I want to
or that I feel I'm justified in my hate due to something done to me or others
I care about.

All the Atheist have are man made rules that we as a whole tend to keep
or lay aside given any cause we think at the moment is good enough reason.
Later if we break those rules there isn't anything about them that would at
all compell us to right if we wrong others if we don't really want to. So it
would simply just a set of rules that would only hold us as we want to be
held and nothing more.
Kelly

Originally posted by stellspalfie
to get rid of evil we would have to know and all agree on what evil is. as evil is a subjective thing, full of shades of grey, the concept of evil is an over simplification of highly complex human emotions and how they are perceived by others.
how is god going to achieve this what will he have to change inside us to make it work, what will he switch off?

Scripture says that we will put off our old man and become new, God when
we come to Him will cause us to be born again. The change is inside of us,
God does a work again, not us doing anything other than coming to God. It
is God bringing in lost sinners and redemning us.
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
The difference is that the things
that God says don't do or to do, those are things I do not get to change
because I want to.

So you say, yet the reality is that theists do exactly that. I am yet to meet a single theist that actually follows a set of rules laid down by their religion (or God). They instead, pick and choose which rules to believe in, and which of those to actually follow.

If I do I'm breaking them and I'll be held accountable to God for that, they do not come from me or another like me.
And one of the reasons Christianity is so popular, is that it appears to create a way out. ie you do not actually get held accountable, you get forgiven. Although you say you will be held accountable and that you believe you will, you do not actually behave as if you genuinely believe it.

All the Atheist have are man made rules that we as a whole tend to keep
or lay aside given any cause we think at the moment is good enough reason.
Later if we break those rules there isn't anything about them that would at
all compell us to right if we wrong others if we don't really want to. So it
would simply just a set of rules that would only hold us as we want to be
held and nothing more.
Yet it seems that us atheists are just as well behaved as theists - if not more so. So it appears that there is something missing in your understanding of it all.
Generally, most of my behavior is not based on fear of punishment. Most of my behavior has to do with benefiting myself and those I love. I am not nice to my son because I fear he will punish me if I am not or that someone else will punish me. I am nice to him because I love him. In this, I think there is no difference between theists and atheists.

Originally posted by twhitehead
So you say, yet the reality is that theists do exactly that. I am yet to meet a single theist that actually follows a set of rules laid down by their religion (or God). They instead, pick and choose which rules to believe in, and which of those to actually follow.

[b]If I do I'm breaking them and I'll be held accountable to God for that, they do not co im because I love him. In this, I think there is no difference between theists and atheists.

[/b]I agree Theist are people, people will cross any line those that are set
by man or God. The fact that people as you say cross those lines only
shows you that no what is placed infront of people they will still do wrong.

This has nothing to do with the laws/rules but the heart of a fallen race
that will do whatever it wants, because people are both Atheirst and Theist.
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
I never said Atheist do not have some of the same rules like Theist, I have
said they don't have all the same types! The difference is that the things
that God says don't do or to do, those are things I do not get to change
because I want to. If I do I'm breaking them and I'll be held accountable
to God for that, they do not come from me or another like ...[text shortened]... st a set of rules that would only hold us as we want to be
held and nothing more.
Kelly

All the Atheist have are man made rules that we as a whole tend to keep
or lay aside given any cause we think at the moment is good enough reason.
Later if we break those rules there isn't anything about them that would at
all compell us to right if we wrong others if we don't really want to. So it
would simply just a set of rules that would only hold us as we want to be
held and nothing more.

You want to be held favorably in God's accounting, don't you? Didn't you just say that? Is there nothing more than being held favorably in God's accounting, that compels you to (as you put it) right if you wrong others if you don't really want to?

Originally posted by JS357
[quote]All the Atheist have are man made rules that we as a whole tend to keep
or lay aside given any cause we think at the moment is good enough reason.
Later if we break those rules there isn't anything about them that would at
all compell us to right if we wrong others if we don't really want to. So it
would simply just a set of rules that would only ho ...[text shortened]... hat compels you to (as you put it) right if you wrong others if you don't really want to?

Yes, I believe God's views about righteousness are much better than the
fickleness of man's whose views on what is right and wrong as solid
as shifting sands that change for reasons only they have, and only last as
long as the next change in opinion. I believe God's love for us is greater
than that of any of us have for anything, and since He sees the world with
eyes that are not clouded like ours are His ways of doing things are much
better than mine or yours.
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
Yes, I believe God's views about righteousness are much better than the
fickleness of man's whose views on what is right and wrong as solid
as shifting sands that change for reasons only they have, and only last as
long as the next change in opinion. I believe God's love for us is greater
than that of any of us have for anything, and since He sees the w ...[text shortened]... t clouded like ours are His ways of doing things are much
better than mine or yours.
Kelly

Yes, but what would hold you to the rules longer than you want to be held? How is it different for you than it is for the ones you criticize?

Originally posted by JS357
Yes, but what would hold you to the rules longer than you want to be held? How is it different for you than it is for the ones you criticize?

I'm not criticizing anyone here. I've been saying over and over our jumping
over the lines are human traits we all share. What keeps us in line are
our rules our laws without them we would simply be animals doing what
we want as we want without restraint instead of arguments there would be
fights. The thing that sets apart the Theist over the Atheist isn't anything
different about their makeup, but God which is outside both, but in the
case of (admitting this is my faith) Christians, God wants to come in and
make His abode with them leading, guiding, and teaching them along the
way in life. God helps us in our lives causing us to turn our lives around from
that which is sin to that which is helpful to life, love required in this holds us
better than anything else.
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
I'm not criticizing anyone here. I've been saying over and over our jumping
over the lines are human traits we all share. What keeps us in line are
our rules our laws without them we would simply be animals doing what
we want as we want without restraint instead of arguments there would be
fights. The thing that sets apart the Theist over the Atheist is ...[text shortened]... t which is helpful to life, love required in this holds us
better than anything else.
Kelly

OK on that. I personally believe we all have access to moral leadership, guidance and teachings, regardless of our faith or lack of faith at any given time.

Originally posted by KellyJay
This has nothing to do with the laws/rules but the heart of a fallen race
that will do whatever it wants, because people are both Atheirst and Theist.

Which leads me to wonder what your whole argument for the thread is in the first place. You seemed to start off with a claim that:
1. Theists are afraid of punishment and thus will behave well.
2. Atheists have no rules and will do whatever they like.
Yet as the thread has progressed you seem to be admitting that neither is the case and that theists will do whatever they want regardless of the rules and that atheists do in fact have rules - even though they may set them themselves.