12 Nov 06
2 edits
Originally posted by whodeyYou're a piece of "work"; you concede that the Bible insists on women having a subordinate position to men in the family but then claim it's a "huge advocator for women"! How can you actually believe such nonsense?
I would agree with you 100% other than the assumption that the Bible is a sexist document. The Bible, in fact, is and has been a huge advocator for women. For example, in the Torah provisions were made for women to have protection via the family unit. Marriage was the institution for such protection. Men could not simply sleep around and have babies outsi ...[text shortened]... ristiandom. I do not deny that. However, is this the result of God or his word being at fault?
And it borders on blasphemy to claim that a man's position over his wife is analogous to God's position over Man!
12 Nov 06
Originally posted by whodeyCome off it. Just about everything in the bible points to women being considered as inferior to men. How many disciples were female? How many female Popes have there been? An entire book about a woman in the bible? Out of how many? Seems a little biased.
I would agree with you 100% other than the assumption that the Bible is a sexist document. The Bible, in fact, is and has been a huge advocator for women. For example, in the Torah provisions were made for women to have protection via the family unit. Marriage was the institution for such protection. Men could not simply sleep around and have babies outsi ...[text shortened]... ristiandom. I do not deny that. However, is this the result of God or his word being at fault?
12 Nov 06
Here's a passage for ya, whodey:
1 Corinthians 14:34-35
34 let the women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but let them be in subjection, as also saith the law.
35 And if they would learn anything, let them ask their own husbands at home: for it is shameful for a woman to speak in the church.
What a great "advocator for women"!
12 Nov 06
Originally posted by whodeywhodey: What other religious document exalts a woman in such a way?
I would agree with you 100% other than the assumption that the Bible is a sexist document. The Bible, in fact, is and has been a huge advocator for women. For example, in the Torah provisions were made for women to have protection via the family unit. Marriage was the institution for such protection. Men could not simply sleep around and have babies outsi ...[text shortened]... ristiandom. I do not deny that. However, is this the result of God or his word being at fault?
Since virtually every ancient religion had goddesses, I'd say they pretty much all exalted woman to a greater degree than Judeo-Christianity.
12 Nov 06
Originally posted by scottishinnzAs I said before, men have been given the role that is different than that of a woman in terms of authority. Getting back to my illustration of the President, he has authority in certain areas over you. Does this make you inferior to him? I would venture a guess you would say no and, in fact, you would probably have an arguement for being a better man than he.
Come off it. Just about everything in the bible points to women being considered as inferior to men. How many disciples were female? How many female Popes have there been? An entire book about a woman in the bible? Out of how many? Seems a little biased.
12 Nov 06
Originally posted by whodeyCan you give some examples of how the roles should be different for women in terms of authority.
As I said before, men have been given the role that is different than that of a woman in terms of authority. Getting back to my illustration of the President, he has authority in certain areas over you. Does this make you inferior to him? I would venture a guess you would say no and, in fact, you would probably have an arguement for being a better man than he.
12 Nov 06
2 edits
Originally posted by no1marauderI knew this was coming. I am sure you stayed up all night searching the Bible last night and this is all you could find. If you notice it says, "for it is not permitted unto them to speak". Who did not permitt them to speak? It was no so ordered in Biblical law. If so show me where. Apparently the husbands did not want them speaking in church for whatever reason. I would venture a guess that the cultural norms of the day would have scorned a woman to speak out in public in general and not in church only.
Here's a passage for ya, whodey:
1 Corinthians 14:34-35
34 let the women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but let them be in subjection, as also saith the law.
35 And if they would learn anything, let them ask their own husbands at home: for it is shameful for a woman to speak in the church.
What a great "advocator for women"!
12 Nov 06
1 edit
Originally posted by scottishinnzHere are some examples of women who were placed in roles of authority. Exodus 15:20 says that Miriam, the sister of Moses, was a phophetess. In judges 4:4 a woman by the name of Deborah was also a prophetess as well as being a judge over the people of her day. The was, in fact, the highest position of authority of that time because they had no king during this time. Other prophetesses include Huldah (2 Kings 22:14), Noadiah (Nehimiah 6:14), and Anna (Luke 2:36). As you can see, women have assumed positions of authority in both Judism and Christianity. Granted, it has not been as often as their male counterparts but it does and has existed and therefore it must be assumed that it is not prohibited. I would say that this implied sexism is primarily due to the following: cultural norms of the day that tended to place men in positions of authority with or without Biblical influence, the Biblical mandate that the husband must assume the role of the authority figure in the context of marriage is interpreted by others that this applies to other areas within society as well, and the assumed superiority of men over women due to the fact men have superior physical strength over women.
Come off it. Just about everything in the bible points to women being considered as inferior to men. How many disciples were female? How many female Popes have there been? An entire book about a woman in the bible? Out of how many? Seems a little biased.
Lets be painfully honest about something. It is a man's world. It is now and has been in the past. When I say this, I am simply observing what I see and not saying that men are better than women. For example, in the Muslim world this can be plainly seen. Women can not so much as vote or drive a car and have no credibility in the matters of law. In Brazil it is legal to beat your wife in certain circumstances. In the Western nations women seem to have the most rights and privlidges than any where else in the world that I am aware of. However, they tend to not make as much when it comes to earning a wage in the same profession as their male counterparts. Is this fair? No. Are these injustices supported by Biblical mandate? No.
The way I see it, women were created from the rib of a man. What this means exactly I am not sure. However, what it means to me is that women are nothing more than part of a man. In the context of marriage a woman and a man are said to be one flesh or bringing together what was seperated. Therefore, men who hate their female counterparts are doing nothing more than hating what is part of themselves and saying that one aspect of their flesh is inferior to another aspect. This is my view in regards to the sexes.
12 Nov 06
Originally posted by whodeyYet this passage is often cited as why women should not be deacons in a church or be pastors.
I knew this was coming. I am sure you stayed up all night searching the Bible last night and this is all you could find. If you notice it says, "for it is not permitted unto them to speak". Who did not permitt them to speak? It was no so ordered in Biblical law. If so show me where. Apparently the husbands did not want them speaking in church for whatev ...[text shortened]... f the day would have scorned a woman to speak out in public in general and not in church only.
12 Nov 06
1 edit
Originally posted by kirksey957I would say that women should remain subordinate to their husbands but only in the context of a loving marriage and not a abusive marriage. Outside of this particular mandate I would say the sky is the limit for women. Women should be able to participate in the church and in government etc. The reason I feel that someone needs to assume the role of authority in the context of a marriage is that when two people may not agree on certain issues who has the final vote to make difficult decisions? I suppose if you had three people in a position of authority you could run things democraticly and vote on issues, however, you only have two people to make such decisions. The painful reality is that more than likely the union will dissolve if neither is willing to submitt to the other. Also, who do the children listen to? If one parent is telling them one thing and the other parent is telling them the opposite, is this a good environment for children to be in? More than likely the child will play one parent against the other in such circumstances.
Can you give some examples of how the roles should be different for women in terms of authority.
12 Nov 06
Originally posted by no1marauderI was not thinking of ancient religions, rather, I was thinking only of relavent ones that exist today.
whodey: What other religious document exalts a woman in such a way?
Since virtually every ancient religion had goddesses, I'd say they pretty much all exalted woman to a greater degree than Judeo-Christianity.
12 Nov 06
2 edits
Originally posted by no1marauderAs does white-slavery.
whodey: What other religious document exalts a woman in such a way?
Since virtually every ancient religion had goddesses, I'd say they pretty much all exalted woman to a greater degree than Judeo-Christianity.
edit-- excuse the redundancy
12 Nov 06
Originally posted by whodeyDon't be ridiculous; we both know that I could cite many similiar passages in the Bible. Who did not permit them to speak? Well, Paul apparently. And I thought you believed in the Bible, ALL of the Bible, being the literal word of God? Your guesses are worthless; you don't know crap about history. And your position is blatantly internally inconsistent.
I knew this was coming. I am sure you stayed up all night searching the Bible last night and this is all you could find. If you notice it says, "for it is not permitted unto them to speak". Who did not permitt them to speak? It was no so ordered in Biblical law. If so show me where. Apparently the husbands did not want them speaking in church for whatev ...[text shortened]... f the day would have scorned a woman to speak out in public in general and not in church only.