Pope Issues Personal Apology

Originally posted by no1marauder
The exact quote that has been cited as offensive was this: "Show me just what Mohammed brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman,".

Hard to see how that wouldn't be considered offensive by any Muslim.

Read the quote in context. In the previous lines the Pope explains how spreading faith by violence is irrational.

And it should be understood that the person the Pope quotes was probably at war with Muslim crusaders at the time. There is such thing as being too intelligent.

Originally posted by no1marauder
(Shrug) There seems to be more complaining by Christians about Muslims being offended by the offensive remarks then by Muslims about the offensive remarks.

OK, I just listened to the news and heard that some Muslims are vowing a jihad in response to this until all the infidels are vanquished.

Originally posted by Conrau K
Read the quote in context. In the previous lines the Pope explains how spreading faith by violence is irrational.

And it should be understood that the person the Pope quotes was probably at war with Muslim crusaders at the time. There is such thing as being too intelligent.

I suggest you read the full paragraph; spreading faith by violence is just one supposed example of the "evil" that Muhummad supported. And the word "only" seems pretty inclusive.

EDIT: The full sentence is: "Show me just what Mohammed brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached".

Originally posted by kirksey957
OK, I just listened to the news and heard that some Muslims are vowing a jihad in response to this until all the infidels are vanquished.

Kinda like some well known dimwit saying that the present "War on Terror" was to save civilization.

Originally posted by no1marauder
I suggest you read the full paragraph; spreading faith by violence is just one supposed example of the "evil" that Muhummad supported. And the word "only" seems pretty inclusive.

If you have no idea whether the person who made the quote was at war with "Muslim crusaders" or not, you should try to find out and not speculate. There is such a thing as being too ignorant.

Clearly you have not read his speech. The pope confesses that there is "truth in both" Islam and Christianity. He even argues with the person he is quoting when he says "The emperor must have known that surah 2, 256 reads: "There is no compulsion in religion"."

I suggest you read the speech. If you had read it you would have realised that the Pope specifically says that the dialogue was written during the seige of Constantinople.

You're right. There is such thing as being too ignorant.

Originally posted by Conrau K
Clearly you have not read his speech. The pope confesses that there is "truth in both" Islam and Christianity. He even argues with the person he is quoting when he says "The emperor must have known that surah 2, 256 reads: "There is no compulsion in religion"."

I suggest you read the speech. If you had read it you would have realised that the Pope speci ...[text shortened]... the seige of Constantinople.

You're right. There is such thing as being too ignorant.

I read the speech and directly quoted from it. I edited the post above after re-reading it (though it is unclear whether the comment comes from 1391 or the period 1394-1402). You have failed to give an actual interpretation of the sentence provided that accords with its plain wording. Stop spewing out propaganda and give that a try.

Originally posted by Nemesio
Given that he is a man and prone to error, just like all of the rest of the human race.

Apologies for wrongs committed are part and parcel of Christian faith.

However, I would think it would be a demonstration of Christ-likeness for a religious figurehead to apologize on behalf of his own actions as well as on behalf of the Church.

What possible explanation can there be for the absence of person apology in 'recent history' or 'ever?'

"Contradictions do not exist. Whenever you think that you are facing a contradiction, check your premises. You will find that one of them is wrong."

Originally posted by no1marauder
I read the speech and directly quoted from it. I edited the post above after re-reading it (though it is unclear whether the comment comes from 1391 or the period 1394-1402). You have failed to give an actual interpretation of the sentence provided that accords with its plain wording. Stop spewing out propaganda and give that a try.

The pope is making what is called a quote. The quote serves to illustrate the relationship between religion and violence. In context the pope is attempting to explain that faith and reason are not incompatible and are both incompatible with violence. He is thus criticising religions which promote their faith with violence (which is not singularly applicable to Islam).

Originally posted by Conrau K
The pope is making what is called a quote. The quote serves to illustrate the relationship between religion and violence. In context the pope is attempting to explain that faith and reason are not incompatible and are both incompatible with violence. He is thus criticising religions which promote their faith with violence (which is not singularly applicable to Islam).

The Pope had 600+ years to find a quote that supported such an idea (presuming he needed one) and that didn't contain the words "Show me just what Mohammed brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman". Your comment about his level of scholarship regarding Islam is laughable.

Originally posted by Conrau K
In context the pope is attempting to explain that faith and reason are not incompatible and are both incompatible with violence.

Is the pope asserting that violence is incompatible with faith?

How does he reconcile that with the massacres of the OT that God commanded his faithful to carry out against the unfaithful?


He is thus criticising religions which promote their faith with violence

But doesn't that characterize Christianity as much as any other religion?

Originally posted by no1marauder
The Pope had 600+ years to find a quote that supported such an idea (presuming he needed one) and that didn't contain the words "Show me just what Mohammed brought that was new, and there you will find things [b]only evil and inhuman". Your comment about his level of scholarship regarding Islam is laughable.[/b]

He was recounting a personal anecdote. He says,
"I was reminded of all this recently, when I read the edition by Professor Theodore Khoury (Münster) of part of the dialogue carried on - perhaps in 1391 in the winter barracks near Ankara - by the erudite Byzantine emperor Manuel II Paleologus and an educated Persian on the subject of Christianity and Islam, and the truth of both."

The quote should not be construed as an indication of the Pope's opinions (in fact he shows disagreement with some parts). He was just referring to it in order to illustrate his point.

Originally posted by DoctorScribbles

How does he reconcile that with the massacres of the OT that God commanded his faithful to carry out against the unfaithful?

By proper exegesis of biblical texts.

Originally posted by Conrau K
By proper exegesis of biblical texts.

Under a proper exegesis, did God command his faithful to carry out violent massacres in the OT?

Originally posted by Conrau K
He was recounting a personal anecdote. He says,
"I was reminded of all this recently, when I read the edition by Professor Theodore Khoury (Münster) of part of the dialogue carried on - perhaps in 1391 in the winter barracks near Ankara - by the erudite Byzantine emperor Manuel II Paleologus and an educated Persian on the subject of Christianity and Islam disagreement with some parts). He was just referring to it in order to illustrate his point.

Still, no reason for this to stick in his mind - still less for him to feel the need to recount it.

You wouldn't expect him to have said: "I was reminded of this when I was using a public toilet in Burnley, and saw some graffiti saying 'Muslims out'."

Originally posted by DoctorScribbles
Under a proper exegesis, did God command his faithful to carry out violent massacres in the OT?

The text says that He does, but a cursory knowledge of Hebrew literature would cause me to avoid those texts.