13 May 06
Originally posted by FreakyKBHfascinating Byzantine forum !
[b]Was satan created, lived, and sentenced all before man was created but withing the time of the universe?
Yes, prior to human history. Man was created to resolve the angelic conflict, and he inhabits the very sphere previously inhabited by Satan when he was Lucifer.
Hence I must be not intelligent enough to know what the right choice is (or s ...[text shortened]... s clearly as the past and present. This present reality is merely for our benefit, not His.
13 May 06
Originally posted by ChurlantI cannot see a "loving" God allowing Lucifer to continue existing, yet not be held accountable for doing so.
I cannot see a "loving" God allowing Lucifer to continue existing, yet not be held accountable for doing so.
If the state allowed a vicious killer to remain free, I suspect a few calls to the Governor's office would be in order - even without the convenience of knowing for sure whether said killer would actually harm anyone (omniscience, in other words). ...[text shortened]... t, no one seems to hold Him to His responsibility in the matter. I wonder why that is?
-JC
Don't be deceived: whatever anyone sows, they will reap. Lucifer objected to God's sentence, using the same argument that you often see in these forums: how could a loving God condemn a creature He created to hell?
Surely a just God would give Lucifer (now Satan) every opportunity to prove his objection worthy of being sustained?
Meanwhile when God does it, no one seems to hold Him to His responsibility in the matter. I wonder why that is?
Because when God allows someone to ramble on, He has an intention for good that far outweighs any bad that could come of the former. The work of Christ, for example, far outstrips even the most heinous crimes of all mankind. It's not even close.
13 May 06
Originally posted by bbarrWell, there you go again. For some odd reason, you often (repeatedly, consistently) confuse God's will with God's desires. Oh, well, you'll figure it out someday, I'm sure.
Because allowing Lucifer to roam free is a necessary condition of this being the best of all possible worlds. A world is the best of all possible worlds if and only if it corresponds perfectly to the will of God. So, God allowed Lucifer to roam free because God willed that Lucifer roam free. Dizzy yet?
13 May 06
Originally posted by ChurlantAlmost sounds as though you are saying God needs Satan. Silly. Man had free will prior to Satan tricking the woman in the Garden. He was simply used as a test. How we do on the quiz means everything.
I believe the standard "explanation" is that we, as humans with free (and sometimes evil) will "allow" Lucifer to remain through our negative actions and if he were removed by God, this event would contradict God's promise of free will.
In other words, it's obviously our fault because God is supposed to be infallible. How nice for Him.
-JC
13 May 06
Originally posted by FreakyKBHWhy is that? You have already indicated Satan will not be saved, so what is the point of allowing him to continue causing pain and misery?
Surely a just God would give Lucifer (now Satan) every opportunity to prove his objection worthy of being sustained?
[/b]
-JC
13 May 06
Originally posted by FreakyKBHWell, no. We need Satan in order to provide God with an excuse. If He has a hand in everything that happens - an alcohol-related driving accident that kills a daughter - then True Believers certainly need a scapegoat (hm.. Bible humor...).
Almost sounds as though you are saying God needs Satan. Silly. Man had free will prior to Satan tricking the woman in the Garden. He was simply used as a test. How we do on the quiz means everything.
"God works in mysterious ways" as a lone theory does get somewhat old after a few hundred years, I would think.
-JC
13 May 06
Originally posted by 7ate9I entirely agree. Humanity does enough evil (and good) on its own. There is hardly a need for either a God or Satan to justify these things, except as a coping mechanism for the harsher realities of life.
a judge from a town i lived in had his daughter die because of a drunk driver. the idiot goes above the law and always hands out harsher sentences to people caught drink-driving. it's sad his daughter died, but it is wrong of him to go above the law because of his personal problems.
God, the devil. naa, i would say that is people who made a wrong choice.
-JC
13 May 06
Originally posted by ChurlantDid you think Satan was going around poking people with a pitchfork? Satan is doing everything in his power to prove that God is not a necessary element of the possession and performance of intrinsic good.
Why is that? You have already indicated Satan will not be saved, so what is the point of allowing him to continue causing pain and misery?
-JC
The mess that we're in is a result of trying to make a 'good and evil' system work. Not so hot so far, now is it? Don't fret, though, because it will get better soon... or, at least, it will appear to be better for a season. Then all chaos will break out, all under the authority of Satan, unable to control his own kingdom.
As far as the purpose? I don't worry too much about that: I'll take every ounce of pain and suffering coming my way just for the opportunity to be in the game. Since God saw fit to allow Satan an appeal process (which, IMO shows supreme confidence in the 'rightness' of His position) and since in the course of that appeal process, l'il ol' me was wrought, who am I to complain?
13 May 06
Originally posted by Churlant"God works in mysterious ways" as a lone theory does get somewhat old after a few hundred years, I would think.
Well, no. We need Satan in order to provide God with an excuse. If He has a hand in everything that happens - an alcohol-related driving accident that kills a daughter - then True Believers certainly need a scapegoat (hm.. Bible humor...).
"God works in mysterious ways" as a lone theory does get somewhat old after a few hundred years, I would think.
-JC
Amen, bro. Amen. Good thing He gave us doctrine in order to keep things straight. I, for one, would get fed up hearing that same line time after time.
13 May 06
1 edit
Originally posted by FreakyKBH
Since God saw fit to allow Satan an appeal process (which, IMO shows supreme confidence in the 'rightness' of His position)
I can appreciate an appeals process. What I can't appreciate is allowing Satan to remain free during that process, especially when God already knows how that appeal will end. While you may not be worried about "purpose", I find the concept of letting such evil to act freely highly sadistic.
Amen, bro. Amen. Good thing He gave us doctrine in order to keep things straight. I, for one, would get fed up hearing that same line time after time.
Ironically this "doctrine" still represents a high degree of repetition. As an example, each attempt I make at questioning how one could logically consider a God that allows a being such as Satan to remain free as "loving" seems to be met with avoidance.
"I don't know His purpose" is simply "God works in mysterious ways" in different clothing.
-JC
