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@medullah
Great comments for discussion medullah.
The Rapture is not specifically taught in the bible but appears to be an assumption. Two verses that would seem to indicate (all quoted from KJ on line) that the favoured remain on earth can be found at Matthew 5:5 Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.
It seems here that you are assuming that rapture is somehow VERSES the meek inheriting the earth. Perhaps you have heard of rapture meaning "going to heaven" forever. That would make sense then to ask "Hey, What about the meek inheriting the earth?"
Since the demonstration of rapture in no conceivable way negates Christ coming to establish His kingdom on the earth for the faithful and overcoming meek, there is no contradiction.
What goes up must come down.
What goes up to Christ comes down again with Christ to inherit the earth.
For a example: The "manchild" who is caught up to God's throne in Revelation 12 is a collective; a corporate entity. And that corporate body of raptured saints are to "shepherd the nations with a rod of iron" (Rev. 12:5)
"And she brought forth a son, a manchild, who is to shepherd all the nations with an iron rod; and her child was CAUGHT UP TO GOD AND TO HIS THRONE."
See? If the manchild remains in heaven he cannot shepherd all the nations strongly on the earth with an iron rod. This IS the meek inheriting the earth. But FIRST the meek who are ready for rapture are caught up to God and His throne in the rapture.
Psalm 37:11 But the meek shall inherit the earth; and shall delight themselves in the abundance of peace.
Once again. The collective entity called the "manchild" is raptured up to heaven. But they do not remain there. For in a bit over three and a half years they return with Christ, this time quite physically to the land of Israel. And what Christ does as a governor of all the earth, they join Him as co-kings.
Notice the promise:
"And he who overcomes and he who keeps My works until the end, to him I will give authority over the nations; And he will shepherd them with an iron rod, as vessels of pottery are broken to pieces, as I also have received from My Father." (Rev. 2:26,27)
Christ inherits the earth and these raptured and rewarded overcomers from His church co-reign with Him. They too shepherd the nations during the millennial kingdom with strong leadership.
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So working from the passage of scripture quoted from Luke I'm not sure that i would want to be "taken". The assumption seems to be to heaven but I'm not sure that is correct.
I am more sure that they are raptured and rewarded to come back down after three and one half years to co-inherit the earth. This is in the passage. Look carefully.
"Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other will be left.
And they answered and said to Him, Where, Lord? And He said to them, Where the body is, there will the vultures be gathered together." (Luke 17:36,37)
In one aspect it is escaping by being taken off the earth. But in another aspect it is being gathered to be an army to defeat the "corpse" [the antichrist] as birds of prey - vultures. This means this group of raptured ones form an army to come back to defeat Antichrist as birds of prey devour a stinking corpse of death.
Where are they being taken? the disciples ask. Christ explains that they are being taken eventually to where the Antichrist will be in the holy land. Antrichrist is the stinking corpse of death of history. Antichrist and his armies will be defeated at the battle of Armageddon by the army Christ brings with Him from heaven. They descend again with the victorious Son of God to pounce on Antichrist and his armies to vanquish them.
Then they inherit the earth during the millennial kingdom. I will comment further shortly.
Thanks.
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@sonship
Paul’s description of Jesus’ reappearance in 1 Thessalonians 4 is a brightly colored version of what he says in two other passages, 1 Corinthians 15:51-54 and Philippians 3:20-21: At Jesus’ “coming” or “appearing,” those who are still alive will be “changed” or “transformed” so that their mortal bodies will become incorruptible, deathless. This is all that Paul intends to say in Thessalonians, but here he borrows imagery—from biblical and political sources—to enhance his message. Little did he know how his rich metaphors would be misunderstood two millennia later.
First, Paul echoes the story of Moses coming down the mountain with the Torah. The trumpet sounds, a loud voice is heard, and after a long wait Moses comes to see what’s been going on in his absence.
Second, he echoes Daniel 7, in which “the people of the saints of the Most High” (that is, the “one like a son of man” ) are vindicated over their pagan enemy by being raised up to sit with God in glory. This metaphor, applied to Jesus in the Gospels, is now applied to Christians who are suffering persecution.
Third, Paul conjures up images of an emperor visiting a colony or province. The citizens go out to meet him in open country and then escort him into the city. Paul’s image of the people “meeting the Lord in the air” should be read with the assumption that the people will immediately turn around and lead the Lord back to the newly remade world.
Paul’s mixed metaphors of trumpets blowing and the living being snatched into heaven to meet the Lord are not to be understood as literal truth, as the Left Behind series suggests, but as a vivid and biblically allusive description of the great transformation of the present world of which he speaks elsewhere.
https://ntwrightpage.com/2016/07/12/farewell-to-the-rapture/
31 Dec 20
1 edit
@medullah saidThe rapture just refers to Jesus collecting his saints [they not going to heaven], who are going to rule with Him during the millennium, on the earth. Yes, the rest of the world population remain on the earth. So the Kingdom under the rule of Christ begins after this rapture period. Nobody knows how long this takes. The world may betotally oblivious to what is going on. Jesus can start his reign with his saints and the world may still not have a clue, as changes can be very slow.
The Rapture is not specifically taught in the bible but appears to be an assumption. Two verses that would seem to indicate (all quoted from KJ on line) that the favoured remain on earth can be found at
Matthew 5:5 Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.
Psalm 37:11 But the meek shall inherit the earth; and shall delight themselves in the abundance of ...[text shortened]... s commensuerate with the old Jewish celebrations ending in 2024 or 2025.
I'm still not convinced.
Many Christians enjoy placing specific dates on the start of these events but so far no solid and concrete evidence has been provided. Personally I do not think Jesus 1000 yr reign will start any time soon. There are still some outstanding prophecies which are unfulfilled.
My advise to people is to get their life in order so that Jesus will consider them to be one of the wise. Of course keep monitoring world events but resist the temptation to get overly excited. God takes care of His people, and they will know when the time comes.
Whoso keepeth the commandment shall feel no evil thing: and a wise man's heart discerneth both time and judgment. (Ecclesiastes 8:5 KJV)
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The rapture just refers to Jesus collecting his saints [they not going to heaven],
This is wrong because there is more than one rapture -
Firstfruits and Harvest. Right now this is general in explanation without other details.
Generally speaking an early pre-tribulation taking of a minority is to heaven itself. And then at the end of the tribulation a majority taking of those who passed through the three and one half years great tribulation.
The pre-tribulation rapture will be to the third heavens.
Then Jesus starts His descent from heaven and at the end of the great tribulation
the majority of believers are raptured not to heaven but to the air where Christ is hovering over the earth.
We know that the pre-tribulation rapture will be to the third heaven because Revelation 12:5 says the corporate manchild was taken up to God and to His throne. That is in heaven.
"And she brought forth a son, a manchild, who is to shepherd all the nations with an iron rod; and her child was caught up TO GOD AND TO HIS THRONE." (Revelation 12:5)
More proof: The rapture of the collective Firstfruits who ripen in divine life early as FIRST-fruits are seen in heaven.
"And I saw, and behold, the Lamb standing on Mount Zion, and with Him a hundred and forty-four thousand, having His name and the name of His Father written on their foereheads. AND I HEARD A VOICE OUT OF HEAVEN like the sound of many waters and like the sound of loud thunder; ..." (Rev. 14:1,2a)
From where did the sound of this multitude come? It came from heaven - "And I heard a voice out of heaven ...". Out of heaven means they were raptured to rejoice and sing in heaven.
We know they will be raptured there because the same description says -
" . . . and no one could learn the song except the hundred and forty-four thousand, who have been purchased from the earth." (14:3b).
Their rejoicing is tumultuous and solemn and beautiful and thunderous AND the sound of it is from heaven. So the Mount Zion where they are standing with the Lamb must be Mount Zion in heaven.
Further proof: These must be those who escaped the things about to happen in the verses AFTER Rev. 14:1-5 which are the things of the great tribulation. And Christ promised that some would escape and "stand before the Son of Man".
"But be watchful at every time, beseeching that you would prevail to escape all these things which are about to happen and stand before the Son of Man." (Luke 21:36)
So the Firstfruits have ripened in divine life early and have escaped the coming things. And they have been raptured to stand before the Son of Man on the heavenly Mount Zion in Revelation 14:1-5.
Now the Firstfruits were purchased "from the earth" to stand before the Son of Man in heaven. Then all the events of the great tribulation of three and one half years are mentioned 14:6 - 13. Then the majority of the church, those who were left behind are raptured in 14:14-16 as the Harvest.
The Firstfruits and the Manchild are indeed raptured to the third heaven where God and His throne are. And the Harvest is raptured to the air where Christ has now come to be in the vicinity of the planet. (1 Thess. 4:16)
"Because the Lord Himself, with a shout of command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, will descend from heaven, and the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are living, WHO ARE LEFT REMAINING, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord IN THE AIR; and thus we will be always with the Lord." (1 Thess. 4:16,17)
31 Dec 20
@sonship saidThis is why I dont use words and phrases not in the bible. There could be 10 raptures for my part, I dont care. The fact is the bible supports the following:
@Rajk999
The rapture just refers to Jesus collecting his saints [they not going to heaven],
This is wrong because there is more than one rapture -
Firstfruits and Harvest. Right now this is general in explanation without other details.
Generally speaking an early pre-tribulation taking of a minority is to heaven itself. And then ...[text shortened]... louds to meet the Lord IN THE AIR; and thus we will be always with the Lord." (1 Thess. 4:16,17)[/b]
1. The saints who will rule with Christ are raised from the dead or if alive, taken up to meet Christ in the air. [ you people call this the rapture]
2. Jesus sets up His 1000 yr reign on the earth.
3. Jesus conquers death and sin, makes the earth a paradise once more, and Satan is destroyed during this reign.
4. After this the earth is destroyed and the New Jerusalem [shaped like a massive cube], becomes the permanent residence of all the righteous.
Nobody goes to heaven, neither resides in heaven. Heaven is the abode of God and the heavenly hosts.
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Paul’s description of Jesus’ reappearance in 1 Thessalonians 4 is a brightly colored version of what he says in two other passages, 1 Corinthians 15:51-54 and Philippians 3:20-21:
It is true that 1 Thess. 4:15-18 and 1 Cor. 15:51-54 are speaking of the same event. This is the rapture of the Harvest at the end of the great tribulation (Rev. 14:14-16). I also agree that Phil. 3:20-21 is about the transfiguration of the Christians' bodies during resurrection and rapture.
At Jesus’ “coming” or “appearing,” those who are still alive will be “changed” or “transformed” so that their mortal bodies will become incorruptible, deathless.
We praise Him for this.
This is all that Paul intends to say in Thessalonians, but here he borrows imagery—from biblical and political sources—to enhance his message. Little did he know how his rich metaphors would be misunderstood two millennia later.
It is not Paul's fault that there would be misunderstandings.
Christians can misunderstand certain things yet still live healthy spiritual lives unto God.
I must read on to see what you're getting at.
First, Paul echoes the story of Moses coming down the mountain with the Torah. The trumpet sounds, a loud voice is heard, and after a long wait Moses comes to see what’s been going on in his absence.
Paul is speaking under divine inspiration even in making statements which seem to correspond to other portions of the divine revelation of the Bible.
While Paul taught of a spectacular manifestation of Christ's coming. He certainly did not negate that Jesus spoke of a secret sudden rapture NOT accompanied with obvious outward indications.
Jesus spoke of His coming as a thief in the night, unannounced, SUDDEN, catching many by surprise. This is like a thief stealthily, secretively snatching away what is valuable to the thief.
"But know this, that if the householder had known in which watch the thief was coming, he would have watched and would not have allowed his house to be broken into. For this reason you also be ready, because at an hour when you do not expect it, the Son of Man is coming." (Matt. 24:43,44).
This teaching is not contrary to a spectacular manifestation obvious to the world that Christ has come. This is a sudden and secretive coming for those living as if in the next moment Christ could appear.
Since both are the word of God to be trusted, rather than make the two aspects fight against each other, we read on to notice that Revelation 14 speaks of a FIRST-fruits being taken to heaven followed by the great tribulation followed by a HARVEST taken to the clouds in the air.
Is this against Paul's epistles? Absolutely not. How much time admonishes the believers to be watchful, vigilant, on guard, living moment by moment in the presence of Christ growing, maturing, ripening spiritually -all reinforce the concept that rapture is like a REAPING of growing crops. Some will be snatched up early. And some will be harvested up latter - having matured latter.
BUT ALL will be raptured one way or another.
Hence the synoptics and Paul's epistles are in harmony.
Christ is speaking the oracles of God. And His apostle Paul is also speaking the oracles of God.
Christ speaks mysteriously of TWO aspects of the second coming in ONE CHAPTER.
1.) Secretively, Suddenly, Unannounced - Matthew 24:40-44.
2.) Tumultuously, Spectacularly as a world-wide glorious manifestation of supernatural power - Matthew 24:27-30.
Compare the two sections. And notice that Paul really prepares the churches for both aspects. You have only referenced the final and latter spectacular manifestation of Christ's Parousia in 1 Thess. 4:16,17 and 1 Cor. 15:51-53.
continued below with Ghost
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Second, he echoes Daniel 7, in which “the people of the saints of the Most High” (that is, the “one like a son of man” ) are vindicated over their pagan enemy by being raised up to sit with God in glory. This metaphor, applied to Jesus in the Gospels, is now applied to Christians who are suffering persecution.
Daniel's vision far into the future is about the saints of God. This will be the reserved Jews as sanctified saints set aside for God and Christians as saints sanctified apart for God.
Revelation speaks of these two sources saints undergoing events of the final week of the prophecy of Daniel.
Ie. "And I heard the number of those who were sealed, a hundred and forty-four thousand, sealed out of every tribe of the sons of Israel" (Rev. 7:4)
That is JEWS for the twelve tribes sealed and preserved through the great tribulation as saints.
"And the dragon became angry with the woman and went away to make war with the rest of her seed, (who were not raptured) who keep the commandments of God (Jews) and have the testimony of Jesus (Christians)." (Rev. 12:17)
Again, who are the saints enduring the events of the great tribulation?
"Here is the endurance of the saints, those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus." (Rev. 14:12)
Again, a remnant of reserved Jews protected and the left behind Christians.
Jews - "who keep the commandments of God"
Christians - "and have the faith of Jesus".
Before Christ rescues the whole nation of Israel He protects "saints" from the remnant of sealed Israelites from the twelve tribes (Rev. 7) and the "saints" of the church who were left behind missing the pre-tribulation rapture.
Third, Paul conjures up images of an emperor visiting a colony or province. The citizens go out to meet him in open country and then escort him into the city. Paul’s image of the people “meeting the Lord in the air” should be read with the assumption that the people will immediately turn around and lead the Lord back to the newly remade world.
Paul is speaking the inspired oracles of God. His letters are inspired of God in exactly the same way the book of Genesis or Exodus or Deuteronomy or Numbers are the divine oracles of God.
Paul is not concocting anything out of his natural imagination no matter what your more liberal skeptical teachers would have you believe. As a matter of fact the same sources telling you Paul is concocting stuff copy-cat style would probably ALSO have you believe Moses is doing the same thing.
I'll definitely take Paul's letters as the inspired oracles of God from the pen of a man into whom God wrought Himself into the fabric of his obedient person. Paul "stunk" with God. Paul and his co-apostles bore the aroma of Christ who was worked and dispensed into their beings.
And Paul completed the word of God (Col. 1:27) writing under inspiration. At least the letters of Paul that we have are the inspired oracles of God - the word of God.
Even when he gave his opinion, it was the opinion of a man whose whole being was saturated with the Spirit of Christ. They too are Scripture. Peter tells us so.
" . . . Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, wrote to you, as in all his letters, speaking in them concerning these things, in which some things are hard to understand, which the unlearned and unstable twist, as also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction." ( 2 Peter 3:16)
Peter, the leading apostle of the original twelve recommended Paul's letters on the same level as "the rest of the Scriptures". Seeing that Paul had to publicly
rebuke Peter in (Gal. 2:11-14) this is all the more impressive both of Peter's humility and Paul's authority as a sent one.
Paul’s mixed metaphors of trumpets blowing and the living being snatched into heaven to meet the Lord are not to be understood as literal truth, as the Left Behind series suggests, but as a vivid and biblically allusive description of the great transformation of the present world of which he speaks elsewhere.
These are the criticism of those skeptics who regard the Bible as some kind of scrape book of a hodge-podge of human mythmaking. Probably they don't believe the Gospels. Or they could be modernistic types weak in faith and strong in doubts.
I have not read any Left Behind books and doubt that I would approve of them 100%.
01 Jan 21
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@sonship saidYou are such a disgusting piece of SShhitt, to twist the bible like that. You have not an ounce of the doctrine of Christ in you. You are pure mouth worshipping, garbage.
[quote]
"And the dragon became angry with the woman and went away to make war with the rest of her seed, (who were not raptured) who keep the commandments of God (Jews) and have the testimony of Jesus (Christians)." (Rev. 12:17)
Again, who are the saints enduring the events of the great tribulation?
"Here is the endurance of the saints, those who kee ...[text shortened]... ews - [b]"who keep the commandments of God"
Christians - "and have the faith of Jesus".
01 Jan 21
@sonship saidYou are shamelessly twisting the bible, and misleading people who do not know better. You are a Satan.
"If you are reproached in the name of Christ, you are blessed, because the Spirit of glory and of God rests upon you." (1 Pet. 4:14)
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01 Jan 21
@Rajk999
Which verse did I shamelessly twist?
WHICH VERSE ... do I shamelessly twist?
Your disagreement doesn't mean a verse has been twisted.
I can respect disagreement with some interpretation. But you are going to identify which verse I TWIST.
01 Jan 21
1 edit
@sonship saidI quoted the passages you twisted. Did you not see it? Two Revelation passages.
@Rajk999
Which verse did I shamelessly twist?
WHICH VERSE ... do I shamelessly twist?
Your disagreement doesn't mean a verse has been twisted.
I can respect disagreement with some interpretation. But you are going to identify which verse I TWIST.
Here is what the Bible says
1. And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. (Revelation 12:17 KJV)
2. Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus. (Revelation 14:12 KJV)
***************************************************************
Here is what you posted :
1. "And the dragon became angry with the woman and went away to make war with the rest of her seed, (who were not raptured) who keep the commandments of God (Jews) and have the testimony of Jesus (Christians)." (Rev. 12:17)
Again, who are the saints enduring the events of the great tribulation?
2. "Here is the endurance of the saints, those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus." (Rev. 14:12)
Again, a remnant of reserved Jews protected and the left behind Christians.
Jews - "who keep the commandments of God"
Christians - "and have the faith of Jesus".
*******************************************************
Your Satanic mind told you to ADD to Gods word, the words Jews and Christians to the bible passage. According to you, Jews have to keep the commandments and Christians only need to profess faith in Christ. This is the false doctrine that you constantly promote. Jesus and the Apostles, went to great lengths to warn Christians to KEEP THE COMMANDMENTS. But you do the opposite. Thats what the bible calls Satan.
I will feel no pity for you [or anyone foolish enough to listen to you], when your time comes to face this .. ... If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: (Revelation 22:18 KJV)
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I quoted the passages you twisted. Did you not see it? Two Revelation passages.
Here is what the Bible says
1. And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. (Revelation 12:17 KJV)
2. Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus. (Revelation 14:12 KJV)
***************************************************************
Here is what you posted :
1. "And the dragon became angry with the woman and went away to make war with the rest of her seed, (who were not raptured) who keep the commandments of God (Jews) and have the testimony of Jesus (Christians)." (Rev. 12:17)
Again, who are the saints enduring the events of the great tribulation?
2. "Here is the endurance of the saints, those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus." (Rev. 14:12)
Again, a remnant of reserved Jews protected and the left behind Christians.
Jews - "who keep the commandments of God"
Christians - "and have the faith of Jesus".
Here is a strong objection to me interpreting Rev.12:17 and Rev. 14:12 as referring to preserved Jews and Christians.
Rajk999 has been very angry and abusive. However I am glad he carefully outlined his objection.
Questions to readers:
1.) Suppose he is right and I am wrong? Does the interpretation I offer ENCOURAGE Christians to be lawless, disobedient, disregarding of following Christ?
My answer is NO. Obviously, if some Christians were raptured and others were left behind I assume there must be SOME reason ALL were not taken. The reason in that those LEFT to be persecuted on earth were below the standard, abnormal, too disobedient, too ungodly even though they were BELIEVERS.
Now let me quote the verses again without my interpretive insertions.
Rev. 12:17 Recovery Version "And the dragon became angry with the woman and went away to make war with the rest of her seed, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus."
Even if Rajk999 is right and I should not interpret commandment keeping Jews in this passage, my interpretation in no way encourages Christians to disobey the Lord Jesus in whom they have faith. [T]he rest of her seed means the remainder of her seed that was not "caught up to God and to His throne" in verse 5.
WELL, why weren't they? Why is there a remaining group of the woman's seed left on earth which were not caught up in rapture? Why do THEY have to remain to suffer Satan and Antichrist's persecution?
It should be obvious that they are the WEAKER portion of the whole Woman and the STRONGER portion - "the manchild" was distinguishingly set apart from within her. The strong manchild are obedient overcomers who have prevailed in their Christian walk.
Proof:
"And I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying, Now is come the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God and the authority of His Christ, for the accuser of our brothers has been cast down, who accuses them before our God day and night.
And they OVERCAME him because of the blood of the Lamb and because of the word of their testimony, and they loved not their soul-life even unto death." (vs.10-11).
This is spoken concerning the corporate manchild who was raptured up to God's throne in heaven and triggered the expulsion of the accuser of the brothers down from accusing Christians before God. Their rapture is a testimony to their obedience in faith making them the stronger part of the whole woman from which they came out Rev. 12:17 wrongly I do not teach lawless disobedience to Christ.
"And when the dragon saw that he was cast to the earth, he persecuted the woman who brought forth the manchild." (v.13)
EVEN IF I am wrong to read into verse 17 the commandment keeping Jews and the faith holding Christians, the overall interpretation does in no way encourage slothfulness, disobedience, defeated-ness, and lawlessness among Christians. Rather it encourages overcoming the blaming accusative Satan by employing:
1.) The blood of Christ's redemption shutting the mouth of the accuser
2.) Standing on the promises of Christ as "the word of their testimony".
3.) Denying their soul life even unto death to follow the Lord Jesus instead.
Now lets look at the complaint about Revelation 14:12.