Problem of Divine Hiddenness

Originally posted by Pudgenik
God has never hid from mankind. It is mankind that chooses to ignore Him.

Mankind has to walk by faith, not by sight because God is hidden from the sight of mankind.

Originally posted by RJHinds
Mankind has to walk by faith, not by sight because God is hidden from the sight of mankind.

not by sight and being hidden are two different things. Walking by faith. Think of Peter stepping from the boat onto the water. Was Jesus hidden? No! Jesus was in plain view. Peter still had to walk by faith.

Originally posted by Pudgenik
not by sight and being hidden are two different things. Walking by faith. Think of Peter stepping from the boat onto the water. Was Jesus hidden? No! Jesus was in plain view. Peter still had to walk by faith.

Hebrews 11:6

New King James Version (NKJV)

But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.

If God is not hidden from our sight now, then why are we told to diligently SEEK Him?

We are also told that when Jesus returns that every eye shall see Him. Why can't every eye see Him now, if He is not hidden from our sight?

(Luke 21:27, Revelation 1:7)

Originally posted by RJHinds
Hebrews 11:6

New King James Version (NKJV)

[b]But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.

If God is not hidden from our sight now, then why are we told to diligently SEEK Him?

We are also told that when Jesus returns that ...[text shortened]... can't every eye see Him now, if He is not hidden from our sight?

(Luke 21:27, Revelation 1:7)[/b]

God is with us always. Scripture states; 'when you do it for the least of these (people), you do it for me too.' It is God in people, working through people, people being the vessel, the light of Christ within, "don't set the light under the basket, but set it on a lamp stand for all to see." etc, etc.

Do you think God is only the Old Man in the heavens? We are not gods, but God is in us. This is why all people are important, not just Christians.

Originally posted by LemonJello
"Dishonest consciousness"?!?

Which specific premise(s) of the argument do you reject and why?

The argument pre-supposes that God is hidden.

When we talk of God in this world we are not expecting the Personality of Godhead to be sitting on the clouds for all to see.

However what we can expect is to see the creation of God all around us and to not see this is dishonest consciousness.

So the argument is void because everyone who defends this argument is dishonest for not observing the creation of God everywhere.

They refuse to acknowledge the wonder and splendour of Gods creation.

They are dishonest..............and therefore it is a dishonest argument for dishonest people.

Originally posted by Dasa
The argument pre-supposes that God is hidden.

When we talk of God in this world we are not expecting the Personality of Godhead to be sitting on the clouds for all to see.

However what we can expect is to see the creation of God all around us and to not see this is dishonest consciousness.

So the argument is void because everyone who defends this arg ...[text shortened]...
They are dishonest..............and therefore it is a dishonest argument for dishonest people.

Dasa, please tell me how many HONEST people are there on planet Earth at this point in time?

Do you think people were more honest 10,000 years ago or are they more honest now?

Originally posted by sonhouse
Dasa, please tell me how many HONEST people are there on planet Earth at this point in time?

Do you think people were more honest 10,000 years ago or are they more honest now?

Why don't you make that last question more reasonable by limiting the time to under 6,000 years ago?

Originally posted by KellyJay
The point isn't lost on me, I just reject it.
I don't see how you can go from me rejecting a human is not out of
reach of finding God no matter what state they are currently in, to
there is no perfectly loving God? I believe that shows God is loving, that
we can be anywhere doing anything, rejecting anything or everything,
and still God can reach them.
Kelly

I don't see how you can go from me rejecting a human is not out of
reach of finding God no matter what state they are currently in, to
there is no perfectly loving God?

Me either; but that is not what I said or implied. Look, the issue here is very simple. Those three premises I listed (premise (1), (2), and (4) from the OP) together logically entail that there is no perfectly loving God. So, like I said, if you think otherwise, then you are rationally committed to the rejection of at least one of these premises.

Right now, I simply do not know which premise you are arguing against, if any. That is based on the following facts: (1) when I directly ask you which, if any, of the premises you want to reject, you curiously only replied that you think none of the premises matter and (2) the main point you keep raising ( "that we can be anywhere doing anything, rejecting anything or everything, and still God can reach them" ) has nothing to do with any of the premises. Again, none of the premises assert anything directly regarding what it within God's power to do; so your point is just irrelevant. Again, and for the last time: premise (1) basically says that supposing a perfectly loving God exists, then all capable, open creatures are able to participate in relationships with God if they try to do so; premise (2) basically says that believing God exists is necessary for being able to participate in relationships with God and (4) basically says that not all capable, open creatures believe that God exists. Again, these premises collectively logically entail that no perfectly loving God exists. That means if all the premises are true, then so too is the proposition that no perfectly loving God exists. So, if you want to stick with the idea that a perfectly loving God does exist (perhaps you should clarify if this indeed your intention), then you are rationally committed to rejecting one or more of these premises. It's pretty much as simple as that.

Originally posted by RJHinds
Mankind first hid from God, so I believe God is now hiding from mankind to let mankind experience the feeling of God hiding from mankind.

Is this God you are talking about supposed to be perfectly loving? If so, then which premise(s) of the argument in the OP would you reject and why?

Originally posted by Dasa
The argument pre-supposes that God is hidden.

When we talk of God in this world we are not expecting the Personality of Godhead to be sitting on the clouds for all to see.

However what we can expect is to see the creation of God all around us and to not see this is dishonest consciousness.

So the argument is void because everyone who defends this arg ...[text shortened]...
They are dishonest..............and therefore it is a dishonest argument for dishonest people.

The argument pre-supposes that God is hidden.

No it does not. The idea of "divine hiddenness" is just a language of convenience. It's not like the actual argument is trying to show that some God exists but hides from humanity. It's obvious upon inspection of the actual argument that, rather, it works to the conclusion that no perfectly loving God exists.

So if you disagree with this conclusion, which specific premise(s) of the argument do you reject and why?

Originally posted by LemonJello
Is this God you are talking about supposed to be perfectly loving? If so, then which premise(s) of the argument in the OP would you reject and why?

I can't say God is perfectly loving, because the Holy Bible also reveals He hates too.

These six things the Lord hates,
Yes, seven are an abomination to Him:
A proud look,
A lying tongue,
Hands that shed innocent blood,
A heart that devises wicked plans,
Feet that are swift in running to evil,
A false witness who speaks lies,
And one who sows discord among brethren.

(Proverbs 6:16-19 NKJV)

Originally posted by RJHinds
I can't say God is perfectly loving, because the Holy Bible also reveals He hates too.

[b]These six things the Lord hates,
Yes, seven are an abomination to Him:
A proud look,
A lying tongue,
Hands that shed innocent blood,
A heart that devises wicked plans,
Feet that are swift in running to evil,
A false witness who speaks lies,
And one who sows discord among brethren.

(Proverbs 6:16-19 NKJV)[/b]

In that case you should have no problems with the arguments conclusion that
no perfectly loving god exists.

If you don't think a perfectly loving god does exist, then this argument agrees with
your position.