Originally posted by Conrau Ksounds like they are the same to me my friend, really it does! God manifested as the father, God manifested as the son, God manifested as the holy spirit. why should they be viewed any differently? you have stated that they are not separate entities, therefore the only reasonable explanation left, is that they are indeed manifestations of the same, for how can they be anything else if they are all one and yet separate.
No. Actually, I have spent some time trying to say that they are not manifestations; they are not different sides of the one die or different faces of the one head, like Janus.
Originally posted by robbie carrobieTrinitarians would disagree. They would say that there is only one divine being but three divine persons. The persons are not manifestations of God (how can manifestations be personal and how they can be related to one another as Father and Son?) I will bring up a thread discussing this sometime later.
sounds like they are the same to me my friend, really it does! God manifested as the father, God manifested as the son, God manifested as the holy spirit. why should they be viewed any differently? you have stated that they are not separate entities, therefore the only reasonable explanation left, is that they are indeed manifestations of the same, for how can they be anything else if they are all one and yet separate.
Originally posted by robbie carrobieAnd acccording to Jaywill, man is now mingled in this somehow now as Jesus was a man for a time period. So according to him, which he can't explain, man is now a part of this trinity thing....
sounds like they are the same to me my friend, really it does! God manifested as the father, God manifested as the son, God manifested as the holy spirit. why should they be viewed any differently? you have stated that they are not separate entities, therefore the only reasonable explanation left, is that they are indeed manifestations of the same, for how can they be anything else if they are all one and yet separate.
Originally posted by WulebgrHey, man, you don't talk to the Jaywill. You listen to him. The man's shrunk my mind. He's a poet warrior in the classic sense. I mean sometimes he'll... uh... well, you'll say "hello" to him, right? And he'll just walk right by you. He won't even notice you. And suddenly he'll grab you, and he'll throw you in a corner, and he'll say, "Do you know that 'if' is the middle word in life? If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs and blaming it on you, if you can trust yourself when all men doubt you"... I mean I'm... no, I can't... I'm a little man, I'm a little man, he's... he's a great man! I should have been a pair of ragged claws scuttling across floors of silent seas..
Thank you Martin Sheen!
Originally posted by Badwater================================
Trinitarians can't have their cake and eat it, too.
Either you have separate entities (Trinity) or expressions of the same entity (Triune).
Trinitarians can't have their cake and eat it, too.
Either you have separate entities (Trinity) or expressions of the same entity (Triune).
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There is no difference in the minds of many Bible students. You seem to be trying to create a false dichotomy - Trinity verses Triune.
However, there is recognized Tritheism which would be an emphasis on the Three separate Persons to the degree that it insists on three Gods.
That is one extreme. The other is Modalism which emphasizes that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit do not sumultaneously exist at the same time. Rather they are three MODES that successively appear.
Between the two extremes views of Tritheism and Modalism the statements of the Bible teach "one God" and Father, Son, and Holy Spirit each as God - coextistent, coinhering, from eternity to eternity.
We also have in Scripture and statments teaching that the Word became flesh. And we have a statement "the last Adam became a life giving Spirit".
Oneness Pentacostals, who are Modalists, use these passages to try to prove the Three of the Trinity are not in existence at the same time. But though it does say the Word that was God became flesh, and though it does say that the last Adam [Christ the Son] became a life giving Spirit, it does not teach that Father and Son or Son and Spirit do not have a distinctive existence simultaneously.
The history of the contraversy is made complicated also by the fact that teachers became very sensative to error. So at one time a teacher may be accused of being a Tritheist for a statement by one critic and a Modalist for another statement by another critic.
In other words a statement could easily get one criticized either one way or the opposite way.
All these contraversies are unfortunate. And it is should not be encouraged to fall into them. however, the contraversies are not the fault of the Bible. When Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are spoken about it is usually in the context of experience and enjoyment.
It is as if it is taken for granted that the audience of the writing understands that the experience of the one God is being spoken of.
ie.
"The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all." (2 Cor. 13:14)
"For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father, of whom every family in the heavens and on the earth is named, that He would grant you, according to the riches of His glory, to be strengthened with power through His Spirit into the inner man, that Christ may make His home in your hearts through faith ..." (Eph. 3:14-17)
These statements are not creedal formulas. They are statments about experience and the enjoyment of the Triune God.
Most of the statments in the Bible mentioning the Three of the Trinity are like this.
Jehovah is the Almighty God.
"And when Abram was ninety-nine years old, Jehovah appeared to Abram and said to him, I am [El Shaddai] the All-sufficient God (or Almighty God) ; Walk before me, and be perfect." (Genesis 17:1)
Jehovah is the Mighty God.
" ... the great, the mighty God, Jehovah of hosts is his name ..." (Jeremiah 32:18 1901 ASV)
"The Mighty One, God, Jehovah, hath spoken ..." (Psalm 50:1)
Jehovah's Witnessess attempt to teach that there is a differene between God the Almighty and God the Mighty. But there is no difference and Jehovah is called both.
They had to come up with this teaching because they had to deny that the child ... born in Isaiah 9:6 is called Mighty God.
There are many names given to God in the Old Testament. It is not necessary that each and every one of them has to be specifically applied to Jesus Christ. It is enough that the prophecy of Isaiah informs us that the born child will be called "Mighty God".
That means the child is Jehovah God incarnated as a man.
Originally posted by jaywillThis is utter nonsense on your part.
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Trinitarians can't have their cake and eat it, too.
Either you have separate entities (Trinity) or expressions of the same entity (Triune).
==================================
There is no difference in the minds of many Bible students. You seem to be trying to create a false dichotomy - Trinity verses Triune.
...
The Trinity and the Triune God are defined differently theologically. There is no "vs." here, they are definitions of different theological ideas. The only Bible students that would confuse these two terms as being the same are the ones that haven't been bothered to take a basic seminary course.
You'll forgive me for assuming that you are part of that group.
Originally posted by BadwaterThe horror... the horror...
This is utter nonsense on your part.
The Trinity and the Triune God are defined differently theologically. There is no "vs." here, they are definitions of different theological ideas. The only Bible students that would confuse these two terms as being the same are the ones that haven't been bothered to take a basic seminary course.
You'll forgive me for assuming that you are part of that group.
Originally posted by BadwaterOh no, get ready..Your in for it now my friend. Your going to hear all about his qualifications!!!!
This is utter nonsense on your part.
The Trinity and the Triune God are defined differently theologically. There is no "vs." here, they are definitions of different theological ideas. The only Bible students that would confuse these two terms as being the same are the ones that haven't been bothered to take a basic seminary course.
You'll forgive me for assuming that you are part of that group.