@divegeester saidFunny thing, Dive: I read over this and I saw some post from five years ago referenced (lol, what, how do people find that stuff) where Sonship said that we can't dismiss this idea that our hell isn't a warning to aliens on other planets or some such. This series of ideas is actually quite old -- I remember this being mentioned by Leibnitz in Theodicy, and even he was just citing someone before him (so this would be at least 17th century).
Depicting the invisible non-evidenced eternal burning alive of billions of people as putting “a criminals head on a spike” as a way of supporting sonships bizarro beliefs about aliens on other planets being deterred (from something) and the lost glorifying Jesus as the metaphorical “heads on spikes”...has to be one of the most revolting notions to ever come out of an alleged Christians mind.
Do you ever stop to think about what you post?
I am only saying that it is valid to say that hell can be conceptualized as a warning just as a head on a pike can be...
And, just as how Goliath's head can be a trophy of King David and also as a sign of proof, it can be a form of glorification...
Surely, in a forum full of materialists, it would make sense to talk about the power of physical evidence, right?
@philokalia saidWouldn't the aliens on other planets need to be able to see the burning non-believers being hung out on chains for it to be a "warning" to them?
Sonship said that we can't dismiss this idea that our hell isn't a warning to aliens on other planets or some such. This series of ideas is actually quite old -- I remember this being mentioned by Leibnitz in Theodicy, and even he was just citing someone before him (so this would be at least 17th century).
@philokalia saidI don’t find it “funny” at all Jacob, I find it abhorrent.
Funny thing, Dive:
It is revealing of your mindset that you find the concept of burning people alive, of aliens watching and of non-Christians heads being on pikes “funny”
@fmf saidThe whole concept is a load of made up bollox with sonship, philokalia, SecondSon etc dragging the name of a benevolent god through the gutters of a medieval house of torture and space aliens.
Wouldn't the aliens on other planets need to be able to see the burning non-believers being hung out on chains for it to be a "warning" to them?
I have another atheist poster PM today telling how they found the ideas being floated by these twisted religionists as “ridiculous”.
- Joined
- 01 Oct 04
- Moves
- 12095
@divegeester saidDo you find it abhorrent for God to cast people into the lake of fire as well? Or only if space aliens are watching?
I don’t find it “funny” at all Jacob, I find it abhorrent.
It is revealing of your mindset that you find the concept of burning people alive, of aliens watching and of non-Christians heads being on pikes “funny”
@dj2becker saidTorturing people just because they don’t believe you exist is abhorrent.
Do you find it abhorrent to cast people into the lake of fire as well? Or only if space aliens are watching?
Believing that there are aliens on other worlds who are able to see it happening, presumably in real time on outside Olympic type big screens, is ridiculous in the extreme.
Finding it all funny like philokalia does is sickening.
Believing it is all “perfect justice” like sonship does is frightening
@divegeester saidAh yes.. but Leibnitz blah blah blah 17th-century blah blah blah long reasoned argument blah blah deep blah blah blah ...
The whole concept is a load of made up bollox with sonship, philokalia, SecondSon etc dragging the name of a benevolent god through the gutters of a medieval house of torture and space aliens.
- Joined
- 03 Jan 13
- Moves
- 13080
@Philokalia
Since Dive didn't do his job, for your sake, let me submit my thoughts on my six points. I think this all repetition of things said before.
This is for you Philokalia.
1.) Of course there is no denying that "the lost" is a biblical concept. That is unless you don't think "the lost" is an appropriate description to those whose names are not found written in the book of life at the last judgment. (Rev. 20:15)
The prodigal son away from the father - lost and then was found, which parable is about the sinner's salvation.
"But we had to be merry and rejoice, because this brother of yours was dead and is alive, and was LOST and was found." (Luke 15:32)
Dive can't say "the lost" as I used it is contrary to the Bible.
2.) Dive can hardly object to the concept of "endless woe" of the lost.
There is NOTHING about eternal separation from [edited] God in the Bible which gives the slightest hint of such a punishment being comfortable. While we don't know if the same level of discomfort is identical to all, we can assume it is a "woe" to be eternally punished.
"Who will not fear, O Lord, and glorify Your name? For You alone are holy; ... for Your righteous judgments have been made manifest." (Rev. 15:4)
The answer to the rhetorical question should be that NO ONE will not be in fear of God's righteous judgments. Dive can hardly complain that I shouldn't say the lost will be in woe.
Is there some evidence that the lost will not be in "endless woe" as "it is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God." (Heb 10:31) ?
- Joined
- 03 Jan 13
- Moves
- 13080
4.) Divegeester must prove no such thing as "hung out in chains" pertains to the lost.
Here I would agree that "hung in chains" is something I don't know will take place. However, my phrasing was not hung in chains of iron or bronze or material substance. It was obviously an EXPRESSION - "hung in chains of PUNISHMENT" .
Have I ANY ground to say "the lost" will be hung in chains of punishment ? Rebellious angels of a most severe type were in "eternal chains" or "eternal bonds" in Jude 6.
"And angels who did not keep their own principality but abandoned their own dwelling place, He has kept in eternal bonds under gloom for the judgment of the great day."
"Chains of punishment" was clearly an expression. I don't know how much a serious offense it is to Scripture to say that how angels were confined will be similar to how the lost human sinners will also be.
This point of "chains of punishment" poetic license ... (I was copying Robert Govette ). I can't see how it is that much off unless Divegeester CANNOT see "chains of punishment" to be anything but material or iron chains.
Actually, C.S. Lewis said that the door to hell is locked from within. So some have argued that the confinement of eternal punishment is more of a self inflicted confinement.
Regardless, how serious an offense to Scripture was my expression "the lost will be hung in chains of punishment" ?
They say I plagiarized one Robert Govette. Be it known that Robert Govette wrote a great deal of wonderful and positive things about the Christian faith besides this one infamous expression which I COPIED and used here years ago.
5.) Divegeester must prove that future punishment of the lost is in no way a deterrent.
Isaiah 66:22-24 and Daniel 12:2 seem to be the witness of eternal punishment as some kind of warning result that the rebellion of Satan consummated in the inevitable total defeat.
6.) Divegeester must prove no such thing as "other words" is possible in that coming age.
Other worlds may or may not include other planet worlds.
As you can see I wrote "a deterrent to other worlds" which Divegeester relishes to announce was my statement about space aliens "ON OTHER WORLDS".
A.) Other worlds doesn't HAVE to mean other planets.
B.) Do we KNOW there will be no other life ON other worlds to witness God's eternal judgment?
I don't know that one way or the other.
C.) Would other ages or other worlds be deterred by witnessing God's eternal judgment?
How serious an error would it be if the answer were NO ? We know from Revelation 21 and 22 there will ever after be eternal harmony with God in the new universe.
I think you can see, as much as Divegeester loves to re-visit this paragraph adding details, special effects, and more and more gruesome objections, he is unable to prove my paragraph had serious unbiblical concepts.
It just amounts to him voicing his revulsion at the thought that God would judge the lost forever. But his revulsion is one thing. To say the Bible said nothing of the sort is a false another thing.
Lastly, I gave everybody a chance to prove that DEATH means nonexistence on a dedicated thread. I don't remember Divegeester proving that "the second death" means to be kept alive.
@sonship said:
The saved will glorify God with their endless happiness. But the lost will glorify Him with their endless woe. They will be hung out in chains of punishment as an example to deter other worlds.
It is astonishing how for weeks on occasions you have denied even posting this, demanding evidences etc. Now all of a sudden you know exactly what you posted and after 5 years you have come up with a claim that “other worlds” doesn’t mean planets. Despite you since 5 years ago claiming that god could very well have life on other planets who could be those being deterred.
Of course you also eventually admitted that the statement was plagiarised.
- Joined
- 03 Jan 13
- Moves
- 13080
Philokalia,
You will see how living in the past and heaping obfuscation is what Divegeester will do instead of remedying his six F grades in specifically dealing with my six points.
On page 33 about, you will find a thread on The "Space Alien" Thing if you need more background.
If you have a comment on any of my six points as to how I dealt with them in light of Dive's failure to do so, I'd consider your input.
@fmf saidYes, of course, it is implied that this information is communicated to them though it is not specified how.
Wouldn't the aliens on other planets need to be able to see the burning non-believers being hung out on chains for it to be a "warning" to them?
It was not a huge part of Theodicy and I believe that it is usually kicked around as part of an intellectual exercise -- a subset of the if our world is so bad, how do we not know that its existence also serves a higher purpose argument.
It's not so much about whether or not it is actively happening, but it is moreso about what can suffering mean in a broad context. For, in some sense, the past is a foreign country (L. P. Hartley), in another sense, the past is also a different universe. Does the suffering of people before us mean something to us..? Yes, of course.
Thus even if this world is less than ideal... it can serve a purpose beyond the scope that we intend.
And hell itself, too, while perhaps unproven here, serves a greater purpose in a greater context across time. Moreover, the possibility of hell itself is a powerful incentivizer. How much moreso if it is real.
Of course, this is all speculative discussion... and who needs speculative discussion? Please, can we get a materialist here to remind us that the only things that we know for sure are things that can be seen & touched? I suppose the thread is ready to end with such a statement.
@philokalia saidHow come the space aliens can see these people hung out burning on chains but non-believers on planet Earth can't see them?
Yes, of course, it is implied that this information is communicated to them though it is not specified how.