10 Sep 14
King James Version
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Luke 16: 19 - 31
There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:
And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,
And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.
10 Sep 14
King James Version
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The Revelation 20: 12 - 15
And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
10 Sep 14
Originally posted by KingOnPointYes, a parable + a vision and Christendom creates a monstrous doctrine of eternal burning in hell in order to scare people to Jesus.
King James Version
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The Revelation 20: 12 - 15
And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; ...[text shortened]... eath.
And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
These sole two pieces of evidence for this horendous sleight on our Lord have been kicked around these boards for weeks - you got anything else wedding you to it?
10 Sep 14
Originally posted by RJHindsWhat people think something "generally refers to" is the whole problem here so let's go to a reliable source:
Perish generally refers to the death and decay of the body. The body may be considered dead in an instant. However it takes some time for the flesh to decay and even much more time for the bones. Jesus said the soul is not destroyed when the body is killed.
And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fea ...[text shortened]... e might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
(Hebrew 2:14 KJV)
PERISH
: to die or be killed
: to disappear or be destroyed : to cease to exist
: to slowly break apart by a natural process
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/perish
John 3:16
For God so LOVED the world that he gave his only son that whoever believes in him will not PERISH but have eternal life.
Eternal suffering version
For God so loved the world that he gave his only son that whoever believes in him will not be tortured alive in flames for all eternity but have eternal life.
10 Sep 14
Originally posted by RJHindsAre you going to be disappointed if you find out you are wrong? Will you feel that somehow your version of god was better than the one you ended up with? Will you be wishing that those billions who have perished are actually still alive burning in eternal torment? Will you feel robbed of your justice?
Eternal torment or annihilation?
http://www.bible.ca/su-annihilation-refuted.htm
10 Sep 14
Originally posted by divegeesterI don't believe it will matter to me what I was right or wrong about when I am in heaven with Jesus. I'm sure I will have enough other good stuff to keep my mind busy.
Are you going to be disappointed if you find out you are wrong? Will you feel that somehow your version of god was better than the one you ended up with? Will you be wishing that those billions who have perished are actually still alive burning in eternal torment? Will you feel robbed of your justice?
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10 Sep 14
Originally posted by divegeesterYou are trying to put all burden of what Jesus spoke on me.
Prove he did.
And you'll need more than the one example in Matthew
I accept the canon of the New Testament.
And I don't see why you assume to set the number of verses one has to refer to in order to demonstrate that Jesus spoke of the matter of eternal punishment.
On what authority to do establish that one passage in Matthew is not adequate ?
How do I know that you will not further object that two or three passages are not enough ?
Actually, one passage - Matthew 25:32-46 is enough to show that in the mind of Jesus Christ - "eternal fire" (v.41) was "eternal punishment" (v.46). And this whether I like it or not.
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10 Sep 14
6 edits
Originally posted by divegeester
What are you tryng to achieve sonship?
Let's suppose you win this debate. What will you have done? You will have demonstrated to a bunch of onlookers that your god decided that those who reject his free gift will not just perish** (and by the way, "perish" is not eternal life in flames - think about that) they will be forever tortured in an eternal incinerator.
Take the words above ... "your god decided that those who reject his free gift ..." .
However you express your strong emotions of dislike, you should realize that it is not "me god" but the God Jesus Christ manifested.
You see, you cannot arbitrarily select the things Jesus said that you do not approve of and assigned them to [small g] "your god".
If you do that it is you who are advocating YOUR version of God based on your preference. The one pushing a "version" of God based upon personal likes and dislikes is you not me.
My "version" of God (in His many aspects) is simply the version that the Son of God spoke of. The burden of demonstrating my "version" is contrary to what Jesus taught as His "version" are different, is on you.
It is not enough to point to His great love. I will agree with you indeed that another aspect of Christ's version of His Father and Himself is great love. That does not make the aspect of His judgment disappear.
We have to take God in the Bible in His all inclusive and manifold characteristics. We should not pick and choose as going through a supermarket, "This I take. That I refuse."
What you refuse you should not disingenuously charge as being someone else's "version" of God if Christ spoke and those characteristics of God.
Nice job if you pull it off; I'm sure The Lord will give you a pat on the head.
Sarcasm does not make your case.
Expressing your contempt for me wanting to accept what was spoken by Christ whether I like it or not, doesn't do anything.
This is simply argument by strong disgust.
Why don't you stop the argument by revulsion?
If my "version" of [small letter] "god" is not the NT's teaching you should prove it.
Simply pointing to ANOTHER characteristic of God does not prove that a particular fearsome characteristic of God does not exist.
God's judgment is not incompatible with God's love.
**john 3:16
for god SO LOVED the world that he gave his only son, that whoever believes into him will not PERISH, but have eternal life.
Here you are suggesting that the word "perish" is not eternal suffering. Just taking this chapter of John I think your argument is unlikely.
The Apostle John records that John the Baptist confirmed the words just spoken by Jesus in terms of an disobeying one abiding under the wrath of God -
"He who believes into the Son has eternal life; but he who disobeys the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides upon him." (v.36)
That which has ceased to exist cannot be said to be abiding under the wrath of God. If unborn, uncreated, non-existent, non-being person ? is does not exist it cannot be said such a one abides under the wrath of God.
One might argue that the abiding under the wrath of God there is temporary. But all things considered it probably is not.
In Mark 3:29 Jesus spoke of the guiltiness of an "eternal sin". And in Matthew 25:46 He spoke of "eternal punishment" .
It is probably being communicated that an "eternal sin" will receive an "eternal punishment" . It is more likely that to perish in John is to have an eternal sin matched with an eternal punishment. This would argue for eternal doom rather than temporary doom.
This Son whom God gave, SO LOVING the world, is God Himself in the Son.
The giving of the Son of God is the giving of God Himself to the world in the Son.
The rejection of God Himself in the Son must be the eternal sin to be matched with the eternal punishment. As far as it is possible for finite human beings to comprehend, God came to lay down His life for us in Jesus Christ -
God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself says Second Corinthians 5:19.
New American Standard Bible
namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation.
King James Bible
To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
Holman Christian Standard Bible
That is, in Christ, God was reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed the message of reconciliation to us.
So in John 3:16 God so loving the world that He gave His only begotten Son is also God in Christ reconciling the world to Himself.
To give eternal life there is to give God Himself to us as the divine and uncreated life. God dispenses Himself into those who believe into the Son of God.
10 Sep 14
Originally posted by RJHindsYes let's make sure we don't allow our eternal life in paradise to be sullied by the screaming, suffering and stench of the eternal holocaust occurring next door.
I don't believe it will matter to me what I was right or wrong about when I am in heaven with Jesus. I'm sure I will have enough other good stuff to keep my mind busy.
10 Sep 14
Originally posted by sonshipAre you pretending that you don't understand the concept of testing scripture through surrounding context, author context, covenant context, Biblical context, the nature of God as demonstrated throughout scripture and the need for broad scriptural support to validate the veracity of key doctrine?
You are trying to put all burden of what Jesus spoke on me.
I accept the canon of the New Testament.
And I don't see why you assume to set the number of verses one has to refer to in order to demonstrate that Jesus spoke of the matter of eternal punishment.
On what authority to do establish that one passage in Matthew is not ad ...[text shortened]... rnal fire" (v.41) was "eternal punishment" (v.46). And this whether I like it or not.[/b]
10 Sep 14
Originally posted by sonshipNo it isn't. It is disgusting in itself yes, but see my post above for the reasons - a doctrine this extreme needs to be unequivocally supported through Biblical canon, across covenants, dispensations, authors and within the context of the nature of God through the Bible - it isn't.
This is simply argument by strong disgust.
You have a parable and some tenuously interpreted visions in the book of Revelation of Jesus Christ.
Why you are so wedded to this doctrine is beyond my comprehension - as it is not required for preaching the gospel, salvation, healing, or anything except FEAR.
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10 Sep 14
Originally posted by divegeester
Are you pretending that you don't understand the concept of testing scripture through surrounding context, author context, covenant context, Biblical context, the nature of God as demonstrated throughout scripture and the need for broad scriptural support to validate the veracity of key doctrine?
Yesterday you were limited by being at work.
This morning I am limited by some things also.
I am limited this morning to respond at length with technicalities.
Latter I will take up a response.
So far I take it that you are proporting that a misunderstanding of the word "perish" in John 3:16 conclusively proves that Jesus did not speak of eternal punishment.
I am assuming that that is the purpose you mention this matter in this thread.