Prove Jesus Never Taught of Eternal Punishment

Originally posted by sonship
For those who fail to blame Jesus Christ for the New Testament's depiction of God's wrath upon the unreconciled, here is your own thread to prove He never taught about eternal punishement.

Please go light on links and Youtubes and go heavier on your research.
Quotations of other Bible scholars' views is ok with me.

My only comment will be a link...feel free to dispute the title which is "What is hell?"
http://www.truthortradition.com/articles/what-is-hell

Originally posted by sonship
So far I take it that you are proporting that a misunderstanding of the word [b]"perish" in John 3:16 conclusively proves that Jesus did not speak of eternal punishment. I am assuming that that is the purpose you mention this matter in this thread.[/b]

No, if you read the exchange you will see I was simply correcting RJHinds on his incorrect meaning of the word perish which incidentally was used by John in John 3:16.

Do you think "perish" means to be kept alive in a burning lake of fire for all eternity?

Originally posted by checkbaiter
My only comment will be a link...feel free to dispute the title which is "What is hell?"
http://www.truthortradition.com/articles/what-is-hell

Good article - thanks for the link.

Originally posted by divegeester
No, if you read the exchange you will see I was simply correcting RJHinds on his incorrect meaning of the word perish which incidentally was used by John in John 3:16.

Do you think "perish" means to be kept alive in a burning lake of fire for all eternity?

You did not correct me on my incorrect meaning of the word "perish" because here is a repeat of what I posted:

Perish generally refers to the death and decay of the body. The body may be considered dead in an instant. However it takes some time for the flesh to decay and even much more time for the bones. Jesus said the soul is not destroyed when the body is killed.

And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

(Matthew 10:28 KJV)

But what would perish mean to the soul? Does the soul just fade away into nothing as atheist believe or do they even believe we have a soul? They certainly do not believe in the resurrection or the second death.

The Holy Bible says Satan is destined for destruction and identifies the second death as the Lake of Fire and Brimstone prepared for Satan and his angels where they are tormented day and night forever. Does destruction for Satan mean perish in the sense of death, decay, and annihilation or does it mean tormented day and night forever?

Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

(Matthew 25:41 KJV)

And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

(Revelation 20:10 KJV)

Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

(Hebrew 2:14 KJV)

You never answered by questions, but did a double side step of the matter and accused me of giving an incorrect definition.

Mark 9:43-48 New American Standard Bible (NASB)

If your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off; it is better for you to enter life crippled, than, having your two hands, to go into hell, into the unquenchable fire, where their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched. If your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off; it is better for you to enter life lame, than, having your two feet, to be cast into hell, where their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched. If your eye causes you to stumble, throw it out; it is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, than, having two eyes, to be cast into hell, where their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched.

Questions and Answers: "Their Worm does not Die"

by

Kyle Butt, M.A.

Q.

What does “their worm does not die” mean in Mark 9?

A.

At the end of the chapter in Mark 9, Jesus began a brief discourse with His disciples, explaining that their spiritual well-being should be the paramount concern in their lives. In order to illustrate this point, He commented that if their hand offended them, it should be cut off, or if their foot made them sin, it, too, should be amputated. This figurative language stressed the point that whatever stood in the way of faithfulness to God should be discarded. Jesus concluded that it was better to be rid of stumbling blocks than “to go to hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched—where ‘their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched’ ” (Mark 9:43-44,46,48).

The word “hell” in this passage is actually the Greek word Gehenna, meaning “Valley of the Son(s) of Hinnom,” which was the name given to the valley south of the walls of Jerusalem. This valley was notoriously connected to the sinful, horrific practice of child sacrifice associated with the pagan god Molech. Josiah, the righteous king of Judah, in his efforts to restore true worship, ransacked the pagan worship arena and “defiled Topheth, which is the Valley of the Son of Hinnom, that no man might make his son or his daughter pass through the fire to Molech” (2 Kings 23:10). As a result, the valley became a refuse dump for discarding filth, dead animals, and other garbage (see Jeremiah 7:32). By the time of Jesus, the Jewish community associated Gehenna with spiritual death (Lenski, 1946, p. 407).

Interjected into Jesus’ explicit description of Gehenna, was the statement that in this horrid place, the “worm does not die.” The worms—described in Isaiah (66:24), and pictured by Jesus in Mark 9—are maggots, which would be associated quite naturally with the rotting filth of a refuse heap. The twist to Jesus’ phrase is the fact that the worm in hell “does not die.” Concerning this, Lenski wrote: “The fact that it does not die means that its work is eternal. ...The bodies of the blessed shall shine with glory and eternal bliss, but the bodies of the damned shall be like rotting, putrid corpses that have the worm within...” (p. 408).

This passage surely must represent one of the most graphic mental pictures ever painted by our Lord—which should cause each of us to reflect seriously on the possible stumbling blocks in our own lives, and what we can do on a daily basis in order to avoid them.

http://www.apologeticspress.org/apcontent.aspx?category=11&article=29

Originally posted by RJHinds
You did not correct me on my incorrect meaning of the word "perish" because here is a repeat of what I posted:

[b]Perish generally refers to the death and decay of the body. The body may be considered dead in an instant. However it takes some time for the flesh to decay and even much more time for the bones. Jesus said the soul is not destroyed when th ...[text shortened]... , but did a double side step of the matter and accused me of giving an incorrect definition.[/b]

What questions, you didn't ask any.

Originally posted by divegeester
What questions, you didn't ask any.

You Liar. All Liars will have their part in the Lake of Fire and Brimstone, the second Death.
(Revelation 21:8)

Originally posted by divegeester
Yes let's make sure we don't allow our eternal life in paradise to be sullied by the screaming, suffering and stench of the eternal holocaust occurring next door.

This is what I mean by argument by revulsion. You're a master of it on this subject.

Do you want to be comformed to Christ ? Romans 8 says that the believers are to be conformed to the image of His Son -

"Because those whom He foreknew, He also predestinated to be CONFORMED to the image of His Son, that He might be the Firstborn among many brothers." (Rom. 8:29)

Now this Firstborn Son is said to be examining those followers of Antichrist who worship Antichrist and Satan and receive Antichrist's mark. This Firstborn Son of God with some of His "holy angels" will be observing His vengence upon these followers of Satan.

Are you going to RESIST being conformed to His image in sharing His attitude, His thought, His vindication, His ability to watch the ones for whom He was crucified, be tormented.

" He also shall drink of the wine of the fury of God, which is mixed undiluted in the cup of His wrath; and he shall be tormented in fire and brimestone before the holy angels and before the Lamb. " (Rev. 14:10)

Are you going to REFUSE that God conform you to the image of this One ?
Are you going to FIGHT against the transforming Spirit protesting that you will NEVER be like this MONSTER !

Tell us how you will resist God's transforming operation to conform you to the image of the Son of God who is said here to execute vengeance upon the followers of the Antichrist.

As for me, I expect that the Holy Spirit will transform me degree by degree by degree into the same image of Christ.

"And the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is there is freedom. But we all with unveiled face, beholding and reflecting like a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, even as from the Lord Spirit." (2 Cor. 3:17,18)

I expect to arrive at the same opinion, the same outlook, the same attitude, the same viewpoint and the same feeling, mind, will, emotion of the Son of God.

And this not in just areas my sentimental nature agrees with. But in areas eventually that go against my present feeling.

You on the other hand seem to draw a line demanding that God NOT transform you into the image of the One watching His enemies being punished - Revelation 14:9,10.

So you strongly do not want to be conformed to the image of Christ in ALL regards ?

Originally posted by RJHinds
You Liar. All Liars will have their part in the Lake of Fire and Brimstone, the second Death.
(Revelation 21:8)

You said I didn't answer your questions. These are the only questions in your post, both of which I've answered.

Posted by RJHinds
"But what would perish mean to the soul?
Does the soul just fade away into nothing as atheist believe or do they even believe we have a soul? "

I corrected you understanding of "perish" using a dictionary definition and have explained in several threads including this one that I believe in the second death.

Hsppy to answer any further questions if you post them.

Originally posted by sonship
This is what I mean by argument by revulsion. You're a master of it on this subject.

Thanks, and yes the false doctrine of eternal torment and suffering is revolting isn't it. But this post of mine was not responding to you it was to RJHinds.

I don't see the relevance of the rest of your post to this debate. Did you read the article in the link posted by checkbaiter? There is a lot more that just "argument by revulsion" in there for you to consider.

Originally posted by divegeester
You said I didn't answer your questions. These are the only questions in your post, both of which I've answered.

Posted by RJHinds
"But what would perish mean to the soul?
Does the soul just fade away into nothing as atheist believe or do they even believe we have a soul? "

I corrected you understanding of "perish" using a dictionary definition ...[text shortened]... that I believe in the second death.

Hsppy to answer any further questions if you post them.

That is what I call side stepping.

Originally posted by RJHinds
That is what I call side stepping.

What has been "side-stepped"? Please be specific so I can not inadvertently do so again if such is true.

Originally posted by divegeester
What has been "side-stepped"? Please be specific so I can not inadvertently do so again if such is true.

You side stepped the questions by not giving a direct answer, but instead give a definition that you claim answers the questions.

Originally posted by RJHinds
You Liar.

Me Tarzan.