24 Jul 09
If you died, and found out that what takes place after death is radically different than what the Christian doctrine painted it to be, would you be dissapointed ? What if survival after death had nothing to do with Jesus, would that be a dissapointment ? What if you realized survival after death is inherent, and had nothing to do with religious dogma, would that bother you or would you be relieved because now all will survive, and nobody has to worry about Hell any longer ? It's scary when your world view turns out to be incorrect. I know it happened to me and it was like like being kicked out of the womb into an uncertain world.
24 Jul 09
Originally posted by buckkyInteresting question...
If you died, and found out that what takes place after death is radically different than what the Christian doctrine painted it to be, would you be dissapointed ? What if survival after death had nothing to do with Jesus, would that be a dissapointment ? What if you realized survival after death is inherent, and had nothing to do with religious dogma, would ...[text shortened]... ow it happened to me and it was like like being kicked out of the womb into an uncertain world.
24 Jul 09
Originally posted by buckkyWhy was it scary for you? I was relieved when I realized the christian believes I was brought up with had a weak foundation.
If you died, and found out that what takes place after death is radically different than what the Christian doctrine painted it to be, would you be dissapointed ? What if survival after death had nothing to do with Jesus, would that be a dissapointment ? What if you realized survival after death is inherent, and had nothing to do with religious dogma, would ...[text shortened]... ow it happened to me and it was like like being kicked out of the womb into an uncertain world.
24 Jul 09
1 edit
Originally posted by buckky===============================
If you died, and found out that what takes place after death is radically different than what the Christian doctrine painted it to be, would you be dissapointed ? What if survival after death had nothing to do with Jesus, would that be a dissapointment ? What if you realized survival after death is inherent, and had nothing to do with religious dogma, would ow it happened to me and it was like like being kicked out of the womb into an uncertain world.
If you died, and found out that what takes place after death is radically different than what the Christian doctrine painted it to be, would you be dissapointed ? What if survival after death had nothing to do with Jesus, would that be a dissapointment ? What if you realized survival after death is inherent, and had nothing to do with religious dogma, would that bother you or would you be relieved because now all will survive, and nobody has to worry about Hell any longer ? It's scary when your world view turns out to be incorrect. I know it happened to me and it was like like being kicked out of the womb into an uncertain world.
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I expect to be surprised.
There are many "unknowns". God has not revealed everything to us. And Paul knew much more than what he told us in the New Testament. Some revelation he kept to himself. He took that knowledge with him to the grave.
Christ dwelling within is very substantial and assuring. We have what the Bible says is a foretaste. That is a appetizer so to speak. That is a preview living within us.
No I do not have all the details about what should occur when I depart. But I do have a foretaste of an enjoyment which I shall taste more fully in the future. The NT also says that this foretaste is a seal. It is like a "down payment".
I am enjoying Christ now today. I am not waiting for "Pie in the Sky". I am enjoying "Ham where I AM".
24 Jul 09
1 edit
There are many "unknowns". God has not revealed everything to us. And Paul knew much more than what he told us in the New Testament. Some revelation he kept to himself. He took that knowledge with him to the grave.
If he took it to the grave, how do you know he kept some to himself?
And if he did, wasn't that a little selfish?
24 Jul 09
Originally posted by buckkyIt would be hard for me to believe that would happen because once you have had the laying on of has and had the enwalling power of the Holy Spirit you can't be wrong.
If you died, and found out that what takes place after death is radically different than what the Christian doctrine painted it to be, would you be dissapointed ? What if survival after death had nothing to do with Jesus, would that be a dissapointment ? What if you realized survival after death is inherent, and had nothing to do with religious dogma, would ...[text shortened]... ow it happened to me and it was like like being kicked out of the womb into an uncertain world.
24 Jul 09
Originally posted by RBHILLThere are plenty of people who have had that same experience who later decided that they were wrong.
It would be hard for me to believe that would happen because once you have had the laying on of has and had the enwalling power of the Holy Spirit you can't be wrong.
24 Jul 09
Originally posted by rwingettIt is because they don't understand about life.
There are plenty of people who have had that same experience who later decided that they were wrong.
They probably think that accepting Chirst that all the crap in their life will go away.
But we know that Jesus said that being a Christian wouln't be easy.
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24 Jul 09
Originally posted by buckkyI fully expect any existence that I have after death to be so radically different from this existence as to be unknowable in this existence.
If you died, and found out that what takes place after death is radically different than what the Christian doctrine painted it to be, would you be dissapointed ? What if survival after death had nothing to do with Jesus, would that be a dissapointment ? What if you realized survival after death is inherent, and had nothing to do with religious dogma, would ...[text shortened]... ow it happened to me and it was like like being kicked out of the womb into an uncertain world.
Is there life after death? Not the way we understand it. Do I exist in some form after death? I have no idea.
24 Jul 09
Originally posted by BadwaterHeaven or Hell, eventually, You're a soul, till you get your body back at the Last Judgement.
I fully expect any existence that I have after death to be so radically different from this existence as to be unknowable in this existence.
Is there life after death? Not the way we understand it. Do I exist in some form after death? I have no idea.
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24 Jul 09
Originally posted by daniel58I don't believe in heaven or hell; neither really makes a lick of sense to me. Jesus talked of Paradise, not heaven, and hell sounds like a place that the living invented to make themselves feel better for the bad ones that got away with it.
Heaven or Hell, eventually, You're a soul, till you get your body back at the Last Judgement.
No offense to the human populace at large, but there are zillions of people that are ok and may be going to your heaven, but I don't want to be anywhere near them. It ain't heaven to me.
The only thing that is certain is that the die is cast, and you and I will find out one way or the other unless this self-awareness we have is just a joke and existence merely, and quietly, expires when we do. If that's the case then all this huffing and puffing counts for zero.
24 Jul 09
3 edits
Originally posted by Proper Knob================================
[b]There are many "unknowns". God has not revealed everything to us. And Paul knew much more than what he told us in the New Testament. Some revelation he kept to himself. He took that knowledge with him to the grave.
If he took it to the grave, how do you know he kept some to himself?
And if he did, wasn't that a little selfish?[/b]
If he took it to the grave, how do you know he kept some to himself?
And if he did, wasn't that a little selfish?
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Pretty good questions there.
Paul had an experience of being carried away into Paradise and up to the third heavens. He said he heard unspeakable things. And as far as we can tell he kept it to himself or 14 years. The details of the experience he did not devulge.
Paul wrote about these experiences when the troublesome church in Corinth questioned the authenticity of his apostleship. He was forced to boast as a fool about his experience and revelations. He did not want to do so. You may read for yourself this forced self vindication in 2 Corinthians 12:1-12. However I would encourage you to read the full context which would roughly be Second Corinthians 10:1 through to 13:10.
They Corinthian church were suspicious of his motives, much like modern day skeptics. They challenged his credentials, much like modern day skeptics. They forced compelled him to have to speak up for the depth of his experience.
"To boast is necessry, though indeed not expedient; yet I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord. I know a man in Christ, fourteen years ago (whether in the body I do not know, or outside the body I do not know; God knows) such a man was caught away to the third heaven.
And I know such a man (whether in the body or outside the body, I do not know; God knows), that he was caught away into Paradise and heard unspeakable words, which is is not allowed for a man to speak.
On behalf of such a one I will boast, but on behalf of myself I will not boast, except in my weaknesses. (2 Cor. 10:1-5)
Now as to your second point - was Paul being selfish to withhold the details of these visits to Heaven and to Paradise (two different placed) ?
I do not think Paul was being selfish. I do think that Paul was resisting the sensationalism of the experiences. I do think that in his wisdom what he deemed more useful to the saints was how to endure hardships through the grace of Christ. That is why he said he woud rather boast in his weaknesses. It is how Christ empowered him through his trials, difficulties, troubles, anxieties, and problems that Paul regarded of more practical use to the church.
Now, consider the maturity of this minister compared to the sensational preaching of some Christian workers today. Some ministers, if they had an experience like that would be proclaiming it on TV the next evening. Paul kept the matter to himself for at least 14 years !
So Mr. Knob, I do not think Paul was selfish in concealing the details. Rather he was wise that this information would be little more than a sensational distraction from the saints learning to enjoy the grace of Christ through daily weaknesses and trials.
Listen to how Paul uses his transcendent experience to edify the Christians:
"And because of the transcendence of the revelations, in order that I might not be lifted up, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, a messenger of Satan, that he might buffet me, in order that I might not be exceedingly lifted up.
Concerning this I entreated the Lord three times that it might depart from me. And He has said to me,
My grace is sufficient for you, for My power is perfected in weakness.
Most gladly therefore I will rather boast in my weakness that the power of Christ might tabernacle over me. Therefore I AM WELL PLEASED IN WEAKNESSES, IN INSULTS, IN NECESSITIES, IN PERSECUTIONS AND DISTRESSES, ON BEHALF OF CHRIST; FOR WHEN I AM WEAK, THEN I AM POWERFUL" (2 Cor. 12:7-10 my emphasis)
In other words Paul deemed it more helpful to the church to demonstrate how the grace of Christ upheld him in daily problems. He is powerful when he has to depend on Christ.
He deemed it less important in this case to talk about sensational transports to these supernatural realms, the experiences of which almost caused him to have spiritual pride which needed to be checked by subsequent humbling suffering in his flesh.
The world is quite fortunate to have the ministry of such a mature servant of God. It is no wonder that he authored some 13 of the 27 New Testament books. God could COUNT on him.
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24 Jul 09
Originally posted by RBHILLLook up Tony Alamo (just convicted):
It would be hard for me to believe that would happen because once you have had the laying on of has and had the enwalling power of the Holy Spirit you can't be wrong.
"They're just trying to make our church look evil ... by saying I'm a pornographer. Saying that I rape little children. ... I love children. I don't abuse them. Never have. Never will."
Asked why authorities were searching the property, Alamo compared himself to Christ. "Why were they after Jesus?," he asked. "It's the same reason. Jesus is living within me."
He's convinced he is right. Doesn't do the young girls he molested much good. For his sake I hope there is a hell but as Badwater pointed out - it would only be to make myself feel better about this monster.
As for the thread question, who can explain why anyone would be condemned to hell or elevated to heaven just for their honest beliefs? Tony believes in Jesus, Einstein didn't. I couldn't accept any belief that would say that Tony goes to heaven and Einstein didn't. On the other hand, if you think Einstein went to heaven then why prattle on about your beliefs? They are obviously irrelevant.
25 Jul 09
Originally posted by buckkyIf you died, and found out that what takes place after death is exactly as described in the Bible, would you be disappointed?
If you died, and found out that what takes place after death is radically different than what the Christian doctrine painted it to be, would you be dissapointed ? What if survival after death had nothing to do with Jesus, would that be a dissapointment ? What if you realized survival after death is inherent, and had nothing to do with religious dogma, would ...[text shortened]... ow it happened to me and it was like like being kicked out of the womb into an uncertain world.