quit shoving your religion down my throte

Originally posted by sasquatch672
"It is up to God to change them..."

That's what you said. If God changes someone then He destroys that individual's free will. You can't make a choice for somebody and then claim it was their choice.

I think what RB means is that the person by his/her free will asked God to change him/her. Is that right RB?

Originally posted by checkbaiter
I think what RB means is that the person by his/her free will asked God to change him/her. Is that right RB?

YES.

Originally posted by Nemesio
But I'm truly torn on the issue.

I mean, how many jobs require you to 'think outside the box?'
Not many. Most bosses are happy if you just do what you're asked.
Creativity is not really a pre-requisite, just a nice bonus.

For example, in the church I work for, we have a 3-year Lectionary
cycle (that is, every three years, the readings an ...[text shortened]... doing
such a thing really be excessive, given it is not a requirement of most jobs?

Nemesio

I’d say it depends on the job and the freedom one has to express
themselves within it. With music a lone singer or a lone musician can
go where their music and their spirit takes them; however, I can see
how that could become problematic if everyone in a band was doing
their own thing, it would be difficult to keep the necessary harmony
required at times. There is a lot to be said for discipline too, keeping
pace, doing what is required when it is required at just as it is needed
no more, no less.
Kelly

Originally posted by sasquatch672
"It is up to God to change them..."

That's what you said. If God changes someone then He destroys that individual's free will. You can't make a choice for somebody and then claim it was their choice.

I would say it isn't that God destroys free will, He only accepts
free will. God only deals with us when we are being real with God
no pretence, no religious trickery on our part, no hiding our true
intents in the back of our hearts hoping to pull one over on God.

Something does get destroyed though, and important part of the
human existence in many of our opinions too. One cannot get
a new life, if they are not willing to give up the old. Those that
are willing to lose their lives, will save them.
Kelly

Originally posted by Wulebgr
Why do we understand that 2 + 2 = 4 is true? Because we learned first to count, and we learned the concept of the number line. Then we learned addition, as a shortcut to counting beans. Then, we learned more complicated forms of addition, such as multiplication, and so on.

It is also a fact that the earth is ~4.6 billion years old. However, those who peru ...[text shortened]... well aware that this fact is in dispute by those who cannot see the rest of the iceberg.

2+2=4 is a fact only because we made the number system to work that way

the sum of the internal angles of a triangle is 180 degrees
depends on your system of geometry

"the earth is ~4.6 billion years old" is a theory supported by evidence
it's not a fact

science generally gives us evidence to support theories, not facts

Originally posted by aging blitzer
2+2=4 is a fact only because we made the number system to work that way

the sum of the internal angles of a triangle is 180 degrees
depends on your system of geometry

"the earth is ~4.6 billion years old" is a theory supported by evidence
it's not a fact

science generally gives us evidence to support theories, not facts

I'm not sure I'd agree with you saying 2+2=4 is only a fact
because we made the numbering system work that way, we
simply assigned names to values, the values have rules all
by themselves. We simply have discovered the truths
concerning them by study, it isn't a matter of just syntax,
and man made rules even when we apply it to geometry.

I do agree with the age of the universe part, mainly because
that is something quite different. Now we are applying logic,
chemistry and other means to give us a clear picture of the
reality of the age of the universe. The age of the universe is
what it is, our methods judging that could be right or wrong,
and we’d never know, we can only take on faith or belief we
are getting it right or wrong.
Kelly