09 Aug 14
Originally posted by sonshipYou mean its ok to crucify the Son of God over and over and over and put Christ to shame?The Bible says there comes a point after which there is NO MORE SACRIFICE FOR SINS. So laugh away.
Do you have the time of day that will occur this afternoon ?
Since Jesus offered Himself ONCE there has been no more sacrifice for sins. The same book of Hebrews tells us.
[b]" ... Who does not have daily need, as the high pries ...[text shortened]... ebrews 7:27)
Sounds like Jesus only offered up ONE sacrifice for sins once and for all.[/b]
Heb 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
So use you brains and interpret it correctly taking ALL that was said by Paul ..
- Christ died for ALL for ALL time
- Christ did not die for the SAME PERSON TO SIN OVER AND OVER AGAIN.
There is a limit to such sin. Dont say you did not know on judgement day.
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Originally posted by Rajk999
You mean its ok to crucify the Son of God over and over and over and put Christ to shame?
No. I mean it is not ok.
Not only it is not ok, it is not possible.
It is not necessary and it is not possible and it certainly is not right.
The early Jerusalem Christians being tempted to return to the animal sacrifices of the Law of Moses needed to understand that it was impossible to renew that original repentance. In principle the same exhortation applies to anyone thinking that there is the need to be redeemed all over again as from the beginning of his following Christ, once he has believed into Christ.
Heb 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
The early Jewish disciples who were in Jerusalem receiving this talk should realize that it was a serious thing to try to go back to the temple with its animal sacrices. It was not right. It was not necessary. It was not possible to have their first salvific repentence on these grounds. It was not to be encouraged.
And to attempt to do so was like crucifying the Son of God again for themselves, putting Him to an open shame.
He was the reality of all the shadows of the offerings in Judaism.
So use you brains and interpret it correctly taking ALL that was said by Paul ..
- Christ died for ALL for ALL time
I think you are the one failing to take in all the words of Scripture.
In verse 8 the writer says the vegetation will be burned up. The vegatation stands for the works. They do not stand for the believer himself.
The gound, which we may say is the believer himself, is "near a curse"
Doesn't say the ground will be cursed does it ? It says the ground that produced thorns, thistles is disapproved and "NEAR ... a curse"
Now of course it is not good that any believer be "near a curse" .
And of course it is not good that all of one's Christian works be disapproved and burned up.
But this is not the loss of eternal life. That would be the CURSE.
The bad fruit yielding believer is only "near a curse" .
This of course agrees perfectly with the many other exhortations that the Christians will be rewarded or possibly disciplined at the beginning of the millennial kingdom.
The passage is therefore NOT about the loss of eternal life.
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Rajk999, the passage in Hebrews 6 says that these backslidden ones were partakers of the Holy Spirit.
" .. those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit ..." (6:4)
Jesus said to the disciples that the Holy Spirit would be with them FOREVER.
"And I will ask the Father, and He will give to you another Comforter, that He may be with you forever, even the Spirit of reality ... " (John 14:16,17a)
Are you teaching that the Holy Spirit is only given to all the disciples on a temporary basis ?
Originally posted by sonshipChrist was speaking to the 12 disciples about a specific event that will apply to them only. There are many such cases in the Bible where statements are made which apply to certain people or events or times. You cannot apply that to every Christian who has received the Holy Spirit.
Rajk999, the passage in Hebrews 6 says that these backslidden ones were partakers of the Holy Spirit.
[b]" .. those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit ..." (6:4)
Jesus said to the disciples that the Holy Spirit would be with them FOREVER.
"And I will ask the Fat ...[text shortened]... Are you teaching that the Holy Spirit is only given to all the disciples on a temporary basis ?
Paul was crystal clear. SOMEONE WHO WAS ONCE A CHRISTIAN CAN LOSE THEIR SALVATION IF THEIR SINS ARE GREVIOUS ENOUGH TO OFFEND GOD.
You continue to argue against the Bible.
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Originally posted by Rajk999
Christ was speaking to the 12 disciples about a specific event that will apply to them only.
So He was to be with the 11 disciples forever (Judas excluded) but He is given to the rest of us disciples only on a temporary basis ?
So the original 11 disciples were saved forever by grace through faith, having the Holy Spirit come to them "forever" . But after that the Holy Spirit comes to the rest of us only temporarily and potentially will be taken away ?
To the rest of us the Bible says the Holy Spirit is a seal UNTO the day of redemption.
"And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, in whom you were sealed unto the day of redemption." (Eph. 4:30)
If the Holy Spirit can potentially be taken away from the rest of the disciples who are not of the original 11 or 12, why doesn't Ephesians say we are sealed by Him until our breaking of the law causes Him to depart ?
It appears the not only the original 11 disciples but the other disciples have the Holy Spirit until the time of final redemption and of course beyond, forever.
Explain why Ephesians 4:30 doesn't agree with John 14:16.
09 Aug 14
Originally posted by sonshipThe power of the Holy Spirit is dispensed for those chosen to USE and USE PROPERLY.Christ was speaking to the 12 disciples about a specific event that will apply to them only.
So He was to be with the 11 disciples forever (Judas excluded) but He is given to the rest of us disciples only on a temporary basis ?
So the original 11 disciples were saved forever by grace through faith, having the Holy Spirit come to ...[text shortened]... ION IF THEIR SINS ARE GREVIOUS ENOUGH TO OFFEND GOD.
You continue to argue against the Bible.
SIN is an affront to God. Continuous unrepentant sin is an insult to Christ who died for us, as Paul clearly stated. Holy Spirit gifts are withdrawn in such cases and the person receives no forgiveness.
Why you think you need to argue against the Bible I cannot understand.
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Originally posted by Rajk999
The power of the Holy Spirit is dispensed for those chosen to USE and USE PROPERLY.
SIN is an affront to God. Continuous unrepentant sin is an insult to Christ who died for us, as Paul clearly stated. Holy Spirit gifts are withdrawn in such cases and the person receives no forgiveness.
Why you think you need to argue against the Bible I cannot understand.
The power of the Holy Spirit is dispensed for those chosen to USE and USE PROPERLY.
That is not the issue here. The issue is why the original disciple are promised the Spirit within forever and the following disciples have Him as a seal UNTO the day of redemption but you say the Holy Spirit may leave the rest of us.
The proper or improper application of the Holy Spirit is beside the point right now. Whether He is with us forever or temporarily is the issue.
Are you switching the argument to something else ?
SIN is an affront to God. Continuous unrepentant sin is an insult to Christ who died for us, as Paul clearly stated. Holy Spirit gifts are withdrawn in such cases and the person receives no forgiveness.
So for to be sealed by the Holy Spirit unto the day of redemption is not really "unto the day of redemption" but only until gifts of the Holy Spirit may be withdrawn because of sin ?
We are talking about not gifts, but the Holy Spirit Himself.
Is He with me forever or not ?
And please do not assume that I ask if He is with me forever because my real motive is that I wish to continue to sin.
Go back from "gifts" of the Holy Spirit to the Holy Spirit Himself.
Why you think you need to argue against the Bible I cannot understand.
You have not adequately explained why the Spirit to the disciples is forever in John 14:16 but potentially for a potentially limited time in Ephesians 4:30.
Deflection will not win the case for you. Explain the taking away of the Holy Spirit Himself (not just His gifts).
09 Aug 14
Originally posted by sonshipYES .. everything is withdrawn - HS gifts, promise of eternal life, etc - in the event of grevious, unrepentant sin which cannot be tolerated by God. So says the Bible.The power of the Holy Spirit is dispensed for those chosen to USE and USE PROPERLY.
That is not the issue here. The issue is why the original disciple are promised the Spirit within forever and the following disciples have Him as a seal [b]UNTO the day of redemption but you say the Holy Spirit may leave the rest of us.
The prop ...[text shortened]... e case for you. Explain the taking away of the Holy Spirit Himself (not just His gifts).[/b]
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Originally posted by Rajk999
YES .. everything is withdrawn - HS gifts, promise of eternal life, etc - in the event of grevious, unrepentant sin which cannot be tolerated by God. So says the Bible.
YES .. everything is withdrawn - HS gifts, promise of eternal life, etc - in the event of grevious, unrepentant sin which cannot be tolerated by God. So says the Bible.
Nothing in what I believe allows for a God who will tolerate sinning.
"Being confident of this very thing that He who has begun in you a good work will COMPLETE it until the day of Christ Jesus..." (Philippians 1:6)
1.) Paul was CONFIDENT. You apparently are not.
2.) Paul said what God has BEGUN He will COMPLETE.
You apparently believe that God may not be able to COMPLETE what He started.
3.) WHEN God will have completed may not be known exactly. But it will be until the day of Christ Jesus. The day of Christ Jesus is not one 24 hour single week day. It is a general term meaning a period in which Christ Jesus consummates the will of the Father on earth.
4.) You teach that God may not finish what He started in us because of our failure.
The Bible teaches that we may cause God a little trouble, but He WILL complete what He started.
5.) Eternity does not start immediately after the second coming of Christ. Before the eternal age of a new heaven and new earth there is still at least 1,000 years of the millennial kingdom (Rev.20:2,3,4,5,6,7)
Though many POSITIVE things are spoken about rewards to overcoming believers during this period of 1,000 years some negative things are seen regarding defeated servants of Christ also.
So what God BEGUN in ALL the Christians will be COMPLETED in one flavor or in another flavor - If not in this age in the age to follow. We may cause Him some trouble. But we cannot stop Him from completing what He has started.
6.) Not only will He complete what He has started, but as the perpetual High Priest He ever lives to intercede for His people and save them (not a little) but to the uttermost -
"But He, because He abides forever, has His priesthood unalterable. Hence also He is able to save to the uttermost those who come forward to God through Him, since He lives always to intercede for them." (Hebrews 7:24,25)
Your false teaching teaches that our failures can terminated Christ's priestly activity of interceding for His redeemed people. Contrary to your false teaching Christ is ABLE not IMPOTENT, but ABLE to save us to the uttermost.
If we fail in this age to come forward to God, God has a way to give us the incentive to come forward to Him BEFORE the eternal age of a new heaven and new earth. We will be saved "TO THE UTTERMOST".
Since this is to occur sooner or latter, why not sooner rather than latter? That choice is up to us.
Originally posted by sonshipThis is like the Bible saying 1+1=2.YES .. everything is withdrawn - HS gifts, promise of eternal life, etc - in the event of grevious, unrepentant sin which cannot be tolerated by God. So says the Bible.
Nothing in what I believe allows for a God who will tolerate sinning.
[b]"Being confident of this very thing that He who has begun in you a good work will COMPLETE i ...[text shortened]... e this is to occur sooner or latter, why not sooner rather than latter? That choice is up to us.
You then say : Blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah ... .. and conclude 1+1=3.
God is just laughing at your foolishness.
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So this is how this religious persons
You then say : Blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah ... .. and conclude 1+1=3.
God is just laughing at your foolishness.
Then he claims that God is just LAUGHING at this, His own word -
"Being confident of this very thing that He who has begun in you a good work will COMPLETE it until the day of Christ Jesus..." (Philippians 1:6)
To Rajk999 this is s laughing matter and the God who inspired the apostle to pen this is today just laughing.
Who can have a serious discussion with such a foolish person?
In juvenile frustration he lashes out -
You then say : Blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah ... .. and conclude 1+1=3.
And this is another oracle of God he now says God is just laughing at
"But He, because He abides forever, has His priesthood unalterable. Hence also He is able to save to the uttermost those who come forward to God through Him, since He lives always to intercede for them." (Hebrews 7:24,25)
That is another laughing matter to this mocker.
It must be this kind of person Paul had in mind when he warned the Philippians -
"Beware of the dogs, beware of the evil workers, beware of the concision." (Phil. 3:2)
These are the mockers despising the inheritors of God's grace.
"But just as at that time he who was born according to the flesh persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, so also it is now. But what does the Scripture say? Cast out the maidservant and her son, for the son of the maidservant shall by no means inherit with the son of the free woman.
So then, brothers, we are not children of the maidservant but of the free woman." (Gal. 4:29,30,31)
The mocking of Ishmael towards Isaac symbolized the mocking of those who seek to be justified before God by the keeping of the Law mock those who are saved by the grace of Christ through faith.
See how the legalist mocks those who come to God believing that Christ alone is their righteousness before God.
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11 Aug 14
Originally posted by sonshipIndeed!
So this is how this religious persons
[quote]You then say : Blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah ...[text shortened]... alist mocks those who come to God believing that Christ alone is their righteousness before God.
James 2:10-11
For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all.
NKJV