Reasons for disbelief in the Christian God

@divegeester said
Perhaps you should present your “dealbreaker” idea to him rather than me.

dj2becker is on the verge of realizing that different people believe different things.

@divegeester said
The first two paragraphs of your post didn’t make much sense.

Nevertheless my assertion remains that the question: “why does god permit a child to suffer?” Is exactly the same question from whoever asks it. The difference is that some, people are going through the suffering personally and find the generalised platitudes offered by contemporary Christianity to be an insufficient explanation.

What confused you, the world is full of suffering, Jesus said we would encounter tribulation in this world, but to be of good cheer He has over come this world. You are aware that the 'god' of this world is Satan correct? It is God calling us out of this place into His Kingdom where nothing in or about this world can overcome us. Including suffering and pain, and suffering and pain are not the only thing that can harm us, so can pleasure, it can suck the life right out of us too, to the point of death.

@fmf said
dj2becker is on the verge of realizing that different people believe different things.

Your reply prompted Thread 181092

@fmf said
dj2becker is on the verge of realizing that different people believe different things.

I think he is still a few steps away from the verge.

@Ghost-of-a-Duke

I am not a child suffering from a terminal illness nor have I caused a child to suffer from a terminal illness. Feel free to contribute something relevant to the thread.

I am feeling free to contribute.
This question I think comes under the whole idea of disbelief in God evidenced by suffering - gratuitous suffering.

Gratuitous here meaning - "being without apparent reason, cause, or justification:"

It is noted how quickly the problem of gratuitous suffering is dis- associated with human responsibility.

You want to talk about God's responsibility fluently, quickly, and in depth - any God should have this responsibility.

But as soon as human responsibility is entered into the discussion, suddenly, in a flash, "Why THIS not part of the problem."

When becker previously (and repeatedly) used the analogy of 'torturing babies for fun' in relation to moral absolutes, you defended him doing so by saying it was understandable that he would use extreme examples to get his point across. - Well, here I am using an extreme example to get 'my' point across. Yes, it is an uncomfortable one, and I can understand why you would prefer to deflect away from it or personalize it.

Whatever you and becker are arguing -
I have my own question in contemplating the issue.

I believe that suffering exists in the universe because of the introduction of another will into it other than the will of God.

You want to separate the matter out into only observing deficiency in God's will such as gives you reason to disbelieve that God exists.

My question, which you will apparently ignore, is - If God imposes His will immediately to rectify all this suffering, would it have an effect on anything as an outcome of the deficiency in the use of your own will ?

Your dodge - "This is not about anything from me. This is all about heaping up all the responsibility unto God to do what God is suppose to do. I don't believe in God because He will not do what is suppose to be done."

Your commitment to God stepping up to the plate to do God's job, it seems, is limited by a vested interest to not be judged yourself.

@sonship said

My question, which you will apparently ignore, is - If God imposes His will immediately to rectify all this suffering, would it have an effect on anything as an outcome of the deficiency in the use of your own will ?

Your dodge - "This is not about anything from me. This is all about heaping up all the responsibility unto God to do what God is suppose to do. I don't ...[text shortened]... p to the plate to do God's job, it seems, is limited by a vested interest to not be judged yourself.

Why is it necessary for God to 'rectify' this suffering? I would have thought that an all-knowing deity would have foreseen and 'prevented' it?

And I think the 'outcome' of ending the suffering of an innocent is self evident, and I find it rather curious that you would seek to diminish my altruistic concern for the suffering of others. - Why should the cessation of the suffering of a child have any effect on my own free will, deficient or otherwise.

Ghost,

nor have I caused a child to suffer from a terminal illness.

But to know that you would have to be omniscient. You would have to know everything.

Suppose your introducing a childhood friend to smoking cigarettes latter in time caused him or her to have lung cancer?

The effects on events of your actions are not all known to your limited view. To God they would be clear. And this works both ways for greater responsibility in some instances and to less in some other. God, overall has an all-knowing awareness of this.

If within the next 24 hours God were to right all the wrongs which have caused gratuitous suffering, do you think everyone ELSE would be dealt with but not YOU ?

@sonship said
But to know that you would have to be omniscient. You would have to know everything.

Suppose your introducing a childhood friend to smoking cigarettes latter in time caused him or her to have lung cancer?

The effects on events of your actions are not all known to your limited view. To God they would be clear. And this works both ways for greater responsibility in som ...[text shortened]... which have caused gratuitous suffering, do you think everyone ELSE would be dealt with but not YOU ?

That your ideology resorts to such tenuous and grasping-for-ideas stuff as this is probably a pretty good reason, in and of itself, for disbelief in the Christian God. Are "arguments" like this supposed to turn people into believers?

@ghost-of-a-duke said
Why is it necessary for God to 'rectify' this suffering? I would have thought that an all-knowing deity would have foreseen and 'prevented' it?

And I think the 'outcome' of ending the suffering of an innocent is self evident, and I find it rather curious that you would seek to diminish my altruistic concern for the suffering of others. - Why should the cessation of the suffering of a child have any effect on my own free will, deficient or otherwise.

Why would you think suffering should be avoided above all other considerations?

@Ghost-of-a-Duke

Generally, I think your criticism comes out to you saying you do not agree with the way God deals with things. He should do a better job. And because He doesn't handle things exactly as you think God should, you doubt the there is God.

Its an argument, and old one.
Do you mind if we examine your argument some more?

Why is it necessary for God to 'rectify' this suffering?

We can hardly live this way.
If I mug you in the alley, clobbering you in the head and stealing your wallet, you would want rectification.

I doubt in court you would just say " Your honor, let the matter go completely. Why is it necessary that the crime be punished?"

We hardly live that way.

Is it kindness to the thief to let him get away with what he did so that he can do it again to someone else?

I would have thought that an all-knowing deity would have foreseen and 'prevented' it?

How about an all-knowing deity bestowing upon His creations some amount of freedom for them to choose what to do. That is though WITH the caveat that there will be a final accounting, and infallible one?

" Why did God not make us robots? "

Do you want Him to force you now to believe in God against your will? How about He confirm you when you do decide to believe that you are on the right track? That is after your willingness to accept God.

And I think the 'outcome' of ending the suffering of an innocent is self evident, and I find it rather curious that you would seek to diminish my altruistic concern for the suffering of others. - Why should the cessation of the suffering of a child have any effect on my own free will, deficient or otherwise.

Altruism -
the principle or practice of unselfish concern for or devotion to the welfare of others (opposed to egoism).

It is good that you can be altruistic. It is good that you are concerned about this suffering matter.

So take some time to congratulate yourself that you are altruistic. You seem to be saying that because of your altruism your culpability should have nothing to do with this reasoning of denying that God exists.

Do you know it is possible for men to bribe their conscience?

Ie. "Yes, I know that I am guilty over HERE. But because I did this good thing over THERE, the other should not come into any consideration."

The question is is the God behind the universe and all life just kind of liberally lenient or is He absolutely perfect yet able to forgive ?

The Bible does show God as merciful and ready to forgive. He has a way to forgive. But it reveals Him to be absolutely perfect. Not just pretty good, but gloriously perfect - holy.

To hope that He will completely overlook your sins because, here and there you were altruistic, hopes God is too much like you. Suppose God will not relinquish His absolute infinite perfection to be like liberal and accommodating us?

God made in man's image is Imperfect and Forgiving.
God revealed in the Bible is Eternally Perfect yet Forgiving.

@kellyjay said
Why would you think suffering should be avoided above all other considerations?

Suffering of an innocent? Or indigestion?

@sonship said
@Ghost-of-a-Duke

Generally, I think your criticism comes out to you saying you do not agree with the way God deals with things. He should do a better job. And because He doesn't handle things exactly as you think God should, you doubt the there is God.

Yes, I expect better from a God who is reportedly omniscient, omnipotent and omnibenevolent.

@sonship said
@Ghost-of-a-Duke
" Why did God not make us robots? "

Do you want Him to force you now to believe in God against your will? How about He confirm you when you do decide to believe that you are on the right track? That is after your willingness to accept God.

If God exists, I'm perfectly happy that He gave us free will. I'm less happy however that he is inactive to the suffering of those who haven't arrived at their woe as a result of their free will.