Reasons for disbelief in the Christian God

@fmf said
Adding 5 to 14 surely just strengthens Ghost of a Duke's point rather than dealing with it.

It does indeed, which brings me on nicely to 7 and 8 in my reasons for disbelief in the Christian God:

7. God's alleged omniscience (that He knows everything). - For ease of argument I am going to combine this with number 8 below, to explain why Him being all-knowing is a cause for disbelief.

8. God's alleged omnipresence. (That He is everywhere). - To clarify this, let me take you back to our 'innocent child suffering with a terminal illness.' (And I do so fully rejecting that free will has played any part in this suffering, along with any notion of 'the fall' or that such suffering in anyway provides an opportunity for the child to learn or find meaning. I also reject the twisted reasoning that this suffering is 'little' when compared to the eternal happiness that awaits).

Now, already having the unworkable omnipotence and omnibenevolence on the same table (where God either 'can't' or 'won't' intervene) we now have to deal with the fact that God (being all-knowing) was aware that the suffering was going to occur to the innocent, and furthermore (due to being everywhere) was actually there to experience first hand the suffering of the innocent. And not just suffering, 'NEEDLESS' suffering.

And that is the wet fish across the face moment. The suffering of an innocent child is a 'NEEDLESS' suffering. Why is it needless, well because God is all-powerful, all-loving, all-knowing and everywhere. God is forewarned, fully aware, and has the love and power to prevent such suffering. - And yet, despite all these amazing attributes, the suffering of the innocent is unabated.

@ghost-of-a-duke said
It does indeed, which brings me on nicely to 7 and 8 in my reasons for disbelief in the Christian God:

7. God's alleged omniscience (that He knows everything). - For ease of argument I am going to combine this with number 8 below, to explain why Him being all-knowing is a cause for disbelief.

8. God's alleged omnipresence. (That He is everywhere). - To clarify ...[text shortened]... ffering. - And yet, despite all these amazing attributes, the suffering of the innocent is unabated.

You assume nothing is more important than a child dying or suffering? There are many reasons children suffer besides cancer, direct and indirect actions by family, friends, and strangers! You believe God should have forbid any and all action and inactions that would lead to any child to suffer?

@Ghost-of-a-Duke

It does indeed, which brings me on nicely to 7 and 8 in my reasons for disbelief in the Christian God:

Well, Ghost. I would only ask you this.
Do you have enough reasons yet to disbelieve in the Christian God ?

@kellyjay said
You assume nothing is more important than a child dying or suffering? There are many reasons children suffer besides cancer, direct and indirect actions by family, friends, and strangers! You believe God should have forbid any and all action and inactions that would lead to any child to suffer?

Yes, there are many other causes of children suffering. I am not asking you about those. Try to focus on the suffering I am talking about. Not suffering caused by free will or the actions of other human beings. - I am asking you specifically about terminal illnesses outside of human control.

Why does the God specified allow such suffering?....Give it a shot.

@sonship said

Well, Ghost. I would only ask you this.
Do you have enough reasons yet to disbelieve in the Christian God?

I'm an atheist. Do the maths.

@ghost-of-a-duke said
Yes, there are many other causes of children suffering. I am not asking you about those. Try to focus on the suffering I am talking about. Not suffering caused by free will or the actions of other human beings. - I am asking you specifically about terminal illnesses outside of human control.

Why does the God specified allow such suffering?....Give it a shot.

You are asking about children suffering from cancer which is one of many causes for children suffering. To focus on cancer you would have had God alter all biological causes for cancer so it would not be here and never seeing cancer would automatically make you a believer in God?

I don’t think so!

@kellyjay said
You are asking about children suffering from cancer which is one of many causes for children suffering. To focus on cancer you would have had God alter all biological causes for cancer so it would not be here and never seeing cancer would automatically make you a believer in God?

I don’t think so!

I have never mentioned cancer. Not once.

But anyway, what is cancer to an omnipotent deity? Why couldn't God 'alter all biological causes for cancer?' Are you doubting his omnipotence?

@Ghost-of-a-Duke

I'm an atheist. Do the maths.

Do you have enough reasons to trust that your atheist belief is true ?
Or do you need more reasons?

@ghost-of-a-duke said
I have never mentioned cancer. Not once.

But anyway, what is cancer to an omnipotent deity? Why couldn't God 'alter all biological causes for cancer?' Are you doubting his omnipotence?

You are right on cancer my bad. I am still asking you the same question. If biological causes were not present and death and suffering came due to other methods, why are the biological deaths so bad that they cause you to doubt God?

You read scripture and read death entered life after the fall. You read that do to our nature we die, and we bring about many more ills due to consequences of our actions and inaction.

The means by which any of us die is wide and varied, not limited to anyone at any age. You must have also read that this life is temporary, the finite nature of this universe is nothing compared to the joy to come throughout eternity.

This whole universe has an expiration date, as well as all of our lives. Simply suggesting you dislike one means of suffering and dying for one group due to age, isn’t proof God not understanding or caring about what occurs here. I believe He understands far more than we ever could.

@sonship said
@Ghost-of-a-Duke

I'm an atheist. Do the maths.

Do you have enough reasons to trust that your atheist belief is true ?
Or do you need more reasons?

I have enough reasons to disbelieve in the God portrayed by Christianity. (The point of the thread).

@kellyjay said
You are right on cancer my bad. I am still asking you the same question. If biological causes were not present and death and suffering came due to other methods, why are the biological deaths so bad that they cause you to doubt God?

You read scripture and read death entered life after the fall. You read that do to our nature we die, and we bring about many more ills due t ...[text shortened]... rary, the finite nature of this universe is nothing compared to the joy to come throughout eternity.

Sorry kelly, I am still not reading any genuine attempt by you to grab the nettle.

It's honestly fine if you don't want to.

@divegeester said

I had an exchange once with LemonJello on this very topic and he was very, shall I say, smug in his assertion that this piece of philosophical logic was proof.

That's a demented rendering of the exchange linked below, in which I pasted an inductive version of the problem of evil that you failed to comprehend and then later, upon losing patience with my 'bamboozling' words, presumed to strawman it into a summary of the form "bad [expletive] happens, if a good god exists then it wouldn't allow this [expletive], therefore it doesn't exist" in order to rationalize your dissidence.

In terms of sufficient reason for disbelief of the Christian God, one need look no further than the fact that there is no plausible case for its existence and no explanatory need for the hypothesis. If one wants to go further, one can find several plausible lines for its nonexistence, including appropriately framed evidential versions of the problem of evil; the problem of divine hiddenness; the problem of action; and arguments that embody the Euthyphro dilemma – all arguments I have presented at various times in this forum. The inductive version of the problem of evil that I pasted in the link below gives a flavor. And, no, I do not hold that it is "philosophical logic" that stands as "proof" of anything, smugly or otherwise (only sweet Baby Jesus knows where you got that one). It's just a good argument, that's all, both in terms of an object of study and in terms of establishing a certain level of credence for its conclusion.

Back to the point: you have more fundamental problems than just having to keep track of your strawmans and other disingenuous rationalizations in response to arguments against your position, like the fact that you cannot even cobble together a marginally reasonable case for your position. My advice to theists would be to make that priority numero uno, supposing they care about the status of reasons for or against belief.

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@ghost-of-a-duke said
Sorry kelly, I am still not reading any genuine attempt by you to grab the nettle.

It's honestly fine if you don't want to.

Really

@ghost-of-a-duke said
Yes, there are many other causes of children suffering. I am not asking you about those. Try to focus on the suffering I am talking about. Not suffering caused by free will or the actions of other human beings. - I am asking you specifically about terminal illnesses outside of human control.

Why does the God specified allow such suffering?....Give it a shot.

I think the greatest reason is our grasp of high cost of the reality of consequences and priorities. This life isn’t it!