Sans Dieu Rien

Originally posted by googlefudge
No I do not accept evolution because I am an atheist. Stop asserting stuff about me that you
can't and don't know and is wrong.

Why not ask people what their position is rather than decide for them?

I am not an atheist because of evolution.
My acceptance of evolutionary theory as an explanation of the diversity of life on earth is entirely
in ...[text shortened]... t possibly know.

For one thing it's dishonest.

And I DO care about truth.

Yeah, okay that is it. I do remember seeing this before. Many times.

If you haven't noticed, I've backed off calling the existence of God a fact. Mainly because of this. But it is still a fact to me. Yes, I realize not to you, but that's MY argument. I am fully aware that I cannot prove it. I know that it is a matter of faith. But I still know it as fact within my being like I know my own name. This is because I do have the faith of it, and therefore the fact of it. But, yes, I do understand that this is not going to convince anybody but me.

Maybe that is the problem. Your reliance on "proof" or evidence prohibits you from our experience of God as a fact. Because the experience is faith-driven. It's different than direct empirical knowledge of a fact. I have knowledge of many true facts, so yes, I know the difference. My faith-experience (I'll call it this in lieu of the word "fact" ) is different than direct empirical, provable knowledge, but it is still knowledge, just the same. Yes, to me. I understand not to you.

I've already stopped calling the existence of God a "fact", following your definition of "fact". But still, my "faith-experience" is a fact to me.

I think you do understand there can be no proof. No, I do not think our agreement on this comes from the same source, but it is agreement just the same. So stop asking for something you can never get. It gets my goat when you say "Prove God exists" to someone. Maybe you could just ask them if they can prove God exists. I mean since you know they can't. But what you have to understand also is that not being able to prove that God exists does not prove that God does not exist. Only that a mere mortal cannot summon God to prove Himself to anyone.

Originally posted by Suzianne
Yeah, okay that is it. I do remember seeing this before. Many times.

If you haven't noticed, I've backed off calling the existence of God a fact. Mainly because of this. But it is still a fact to me. Yes, I realize not to you, but that's MY argument. I am fully aware that I cannot prove it. I know that it is a matter of faith. But I still know it ...[text shortened]... exist. Only that a mere mortal cannot summon God to prove Himself to anyone.

Well as I said on a previous occasion, not all theists agree with you.

Some do claim that they can prove god exists, and don't think they 'just' rely on faith.

I think they are deluding themselves, but still.

My main point when asking for proof is to stop people making claims of fact when they just have faith.

Because I would much rather discuss the pros' and cons of believing things on faith or based on evidence
but people keep making factual claims about stuff they cant know and so I respond to that.


I have actually noticed, and actually my argument with you is very simple.

I think it best to believe things based on evidence and reason backed with skepticism because that's the only
way of being able to be confident they are true.
You think that (and do correct me if I am wrong) that some things can be believed on faith alone.

Now I think we could have an interesting discussion as to why this is and how we deal with each others world views.

But the same argument doesn't apply to a theist who thinks that they have proof of gods existence.

Originally posted by googlefudge
I don't.

I have never 'lied' on this site.

Please try to remember that I consider being accused of lying to be deeply insulting.
And you had better be able to back your assertion up with cast iron evidence.

You said, "I do not believe anything personally that I can't prove" which is a
lie because you believe there is no God and you can not personally proof it.
You also believe in evolution and you can not personally prove it. Nobody
can prove it because then it would be a law and not a theory.

Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
What do you believe?

About what? I hold lots of beliefs. Please be specific.

Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
[b]Sans Dieu Rien

Discuss.

gb[/b]

goes without saying.

Originally posted by RJHinds
You said, "I do not believe anything personally that I can't prove" which is a
lie because you believe there is no God and you can not personally proof it.
You also believe in evolution and you can not personally prove it. Nobody
can prove it because then it would be a law and not a theory.

Making a statement like that, the burden rests upon you to prove that googlefudge (or anyone else as you include them) can't prove there isn't a god.

But as I have already said elsewhere, in a pragmatic sense I am absolutely sure *your* god doesn't exist.

Originally posted by RJHinds
You said, "I do not believe anything personally that I can't prove" which is a
lie because you believe there is no God and you can not personally proof it.
You also believe in evolution and you can not personally prove it. Nobody
can prove it because then it would be a law and not a theory.

Wrong on every count.

And again, while there are specific god concepts I feel it justifiable to reject,
In general my position is the absence of belief in a god or gods.
Not the belief of absence.

And again you spout your utter nonsense about evolution which is also wrong.

Originally posted by Agerg
Making a statement like that, the burden rests upon you to prove that googlefudge (or anyone else as you include them) can't prove there isn't a god.

But as I have already said elsewhere, in a pragmatic sense I am absolutely sure *your* god doesn't exist.

Why are all the burdens on me and no one else? You think I should be able
to prove God does exist and I must turn around and prove someone else
can't prove God doesn't exist. So it seems I am the only one that has to
prove anything. No one else has to prove a damn thing. Well being a
Christian I don't have to accept the burdens. Christ has taken all my
burdens away. I am only posting here to help others believe by faith
and not by proof. Christ will provide all the proof you need when He
returns; but I fear it will be too late for you then. I have accepted all
the evidence as proof and now, believe by faith.

Originally posted by googlefudge
Wrong on every count.

And again, while there are specific god concepts I feel it justifiable to reject,
In general my position is the absence of belief in a god or gods.
Not the belief of absence.

And again you spout your utter nonsense about evolution which is also wrong.

No proof. 😏

Originally posted by RJHinds
No proof. 😏

I could bury your house in scientific papers demonstrating evolution.
And then bury that in transitional fossils.

You denying the proof exists doesn't make it disappear.

Originally posted by googlefudge
I could bury your house in scientific papers demonstrating evolution.
And then bury that in transitional fossils.

You denying the proof exists doesn't make it disappear.

Is that a joke. Ha. 😀

Originally posted by RJHinds
Is that a joke. Ha. 😀

Well in that I am not literally going to do it then yes it's a 'joke'.

In that it would be possible to do it then no, it's not a joke.

There are tens if not hundreds of thousands of scientists who work on evolution related
subjects, most if not all write or contribute to peer reviewed papers, and this has been true for decades.

The sheer tonnage of scientific papers written on evolution would flatten your house.

Originally posted by googlefudge
Well in that I am not literally going to do it then yes it's a 'joke'.

In that it would be possible to do it then no, it's not a joke.

There are tens if not hundreds of thousands of scientists who work on evolution related
subjects, most if not all write or contribute to peer reviewed papers, and this has been true for decades.

The sheer tonnage of scientific papers written on evolution would flatten your house.

But it is still a bunch of crap IMO.

Originally posted by RJHinds
But it is still a bunch of crap IMO.

Thank you Prof. Hinds

Originally posted by RJHinds
But it is still a bunch of crap IMO.

But your opinion is, in this regard, worthless.

You know nothing about the subject, you are self admittedly biased, and wilfully ignorant.

You have no relevant qualification or expertises, and all those that do disagree with you.

Every aspect of science and reason disagrees with you, your opinion on the subject can
thus be utterly ignored.
Unless you provide proof you are correct. (published in a reputable peer reviewed journal
and independently verified)