Originally posted by RBHILLBut he is not immortal. All of God's spirit creature can live forever but they are not immortal with the exception of his son Jesus and the chosen ones from earth who will sit with Jesus in judgement. All others including humans are not immortal.
He was made to live forever.
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Originally posted by RJHindsfollowing blindly like a sheep is the behavior of a fool. just because god created everything doesnt give him the right to do what he wants, he has to exhibit sensible and moral behavior, if he doesnt then he should be held accountable.
You show a lot of arrogance to state you know better than God, the Creator of the universe, how to run the universe. When I show arrogance it is being [b]bold because I believe I am in agreement with God. Your arrogance is that of a fool.[/b]
"because I believe I am in agreement with God. "
you would agree with anything god does or says it makes the process of reaching an agreement redundant with you, its not an actual agreement because you have not formed an opinion of your own, you just presume god is correct therefore you must adopt the same opinion.
do i know better than god - yes i do. first thing is to never create the tree of knowledge. adam never sins and everybody lives in bliss.
easy.
Originally posted by sonhouseTell me how adultery 2000 years ago was more of a problem than adultery in your 21rst century.
You do realize this is the 21st century? All that BS should have been put down 2000 years ago but yet here are supposedly intelligent people still acting if all that crap was real.
Why be swollen with conceit because of technology? This modernization has not made us less trangressors of the law of God.
Do you think a modern fornicator of the 21rst century will somehow fare better at the judgment day than a fornicator of 2000 years ago ?
You're deluded. You're the blind leading the blind. You and the dupes who are unfortunate to listen to your foolishness are both going to fall into a pit.
How swollen with pride is the modern man. Jesus said " Heaven and earth will pass away but My words will not pass away." . These words are more lasting than the physical universe itself. What's a brief 2000 years mean to the eternal God ?
Thieves are still thieves in 21rst century. Twenty first century thieves called "hackers" are still trying to get into your possessions and steal them.
The prophet Daniel said that knowledge will be increased -
"But you, Daniel, shut up the words and seal the book until the time of the end; many will go here and there, and knowledge will be increased ... Many will be purified, cleansed, and refined, but the wicked will act wickedly; and none of the wicked will understand, but those who have insight will understand."
(Dan. 12:4,10)
Perhaps this was a prophecy of the advancement of scientific technology. Knowledge has exponentially encreased in the last 200-300 years. But we need to give heed to being purified, cleansed, and refined in the Holy Spirit.
The wicked will not understand the word of God. Maybe you counted the word of God as BS because you are solidly one of the "wicked".
Christ extends His cleansing and purifying salvation to you too.
Readers, I would advize you not to be too impressed by those who brag that this is the 21rst century.
In a short time there are going to happen things upon this earth that scientists will not be able to explain.
What are you going to do then ? Demons from the abyss will be unleashed from an occult world so strong that no scientists will be able to deal with the madness.
What are you going to do then ? Your 21rst century technology won't amount to a hill of beans when Antichrist's hordes are stinging sinners to marshall them in line under Satan.
I advize you to get to know Christ now and the Holy Spirit.
Originally posted by jaywill"In a short time" Do you know how many centuries that phrase has been used? No hand of god has come down in all that time. You are simply following your religion of fear.
Readers, I would advize you not to be too impressed by those who brag that this is the 21rst century.
In a short time there are going to happen things upon this earth that scientists will not be able to explain.
What are you going to do then ? Demons from the abyss will be unleashed from an occult world so strong that no scientists will be able to d ...[text shortened]... all them in line under Satan.
I advize you to get to know Christ now and the Holy Spirit.
Originally posted by sonhouseBeloved, I now write to you this second epistle (in both of which I stir up your pure minds by way of reminder), that you may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us, the apostles of the Lord and Savior, knowing this first: that scoffers will come in the last days, walking according to their own lusts, and saying, “Where is the promise of His coming? For since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of creation.” For this they willfully forget: that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of water and in the water, by which the world that then existed perished, being flooded with water. But the heavens and the earth which are now preserved by the same word, are reserved for fire until the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
"In a short time" Do you know how many centuries that phrase has been used? No hand of god has come down in all that time. You are simply following your religion of fear.
But, beloved, do not forget this one thing, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.
But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up. Therefore, since all these things will be dissolved, what manner of persons ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be dissolved, being on fire, and the elements will melt with fervent heat? Nevertheless we, according to His promise, look for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.
Therefore, beloved, looking forward to these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, without spot and blameless; and consider that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation—as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you, as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures.
You therefore, beloved, since you know this beforehand, beware lest you also fall from your own steadfastness, being led away with the error of the wicked; but grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
To Him be the glory both now and forever. Amen.
(2 Peter 3 NKJV)
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jaywill -
" Maybe if God simply put this ancient arch angel creature down, others might think "Hmmm. Maybe this Angel Creature was right in all his accusations against his Creator."
why would people think that? god doesnt seem to be worried about what people think when flooded the planet killing millions. you cant have god both ways, when he floods he is killing evil doers, yet he's worried about gossip if he kills the root of evil.
"I think that God is doing things in such a way that forever there will never be another rebellion. He seems to have summed up all revolt under this ONE repository of Satan. "
are you suggesting that god didnt know the first rebellion was coming? he has a fix now, so he didnt have a fix the first time? how does he know that it wont happen again if he's gotten it wrong the first time.
" In His wisdom, as He created beings with free will, perhaps God knew that SOME of these being, for whatever reason, would want nothing to do with Him. All of these have to have a place too. Satan has been used as a grand repository to gather up into one group all the angels and humans and whatever other beings, who collectively want to be out from under the authority of God.
I don't see "stupidity" here."
this is riddled with stupidity. the most intelligent being in the universe creates creatures 1/3 of his angels turn evil, 2/2 humans turn evil - this is gross stupidity and bad parenting/teaching, you cannot blame free will, free will does not create evil, if free will created evil how human children turn out wouldnt be connected to how they are brought up and educated, good and evil would be random, free will is still controlled by how our brains work, our brains are a product of our dna passed from our parents and learnt behavior as we grow up.
"I have to stop you right there. It is not certain to me that I can charge God with creating SATAN. I can charge God with creating a creature - apparently perfect in wisdom from the moment of his being created, commited with great beauty and authority, who of his will BECAME the Satan Accuser and Slanderer against His Creator. "
of coarse god created satan, it doesnt matter how satan turned out, god is responsible. god created his mind and his nature, god did nothing to help satan as he decended towards dark thoughts, where was god to put an arm around him and help? if god did, then god failed, making god fallible. if god is fallible then god makes mistakes, which means we should question everything god does.
" I may say that God foreknows many things. But to my sense I am not coerced to conform to what God knows. I have my choice to accept His love. I am captured by His beauty. I am set free from all religious duty simply becuase I am wooed, attracted by the great love of God."
what is it you love about him? he does nothing but set up silly rules and games that do not need to be there, how can you love somebody that has killed so much, because he offers you eternal life? shallow stuff.
"Another weakness in your logic as far as I can see. Who said Satan had NO CHANCE of redemption ? "
its not just about offering redemption, if satan has gone to a dark place, lets say like a heroin addict, suffering from depression committing crime to pay for his habit. you do not just say "give it up and we will forgive you" it wouldnt work. you have to work hard helping them everyday slowly dragging them out of the darkness until they are ready to do it for themselves. you do not give up on them. god has a responsibility, he created lucifer and let him become satan. if need be god could magic it all better.
" But I also recognize that there is another GREAT POWER in the universe. Perhaps it is something as great as the power of God's will. That is the power of the choice of the free will."
if 'free will' existed out side of god and science then it would hold power over god, as god has free will as well. ive said before, free will is just a way of describing a function of the brain, we are given options in our mind when we have had a think. we choose and option. but the options we get are down to our brain. how it has grown via the dna of our parents and how we experience life growing up. we are not randomly good or evil.
" I have chosen to be in Christ. I know that I will share in the glorious enjoyment and destiny of the Son of God because of that choice."
what do you think the 'glorious enjoyment' will consist of. what do you defines something being glorious?
"If you choose to accept Satan's slanders and lies, you will co-share the miserable destiny of Satan to be punished by God who is righteous. You may be locked into a vicious cycle at some point. I mean the more you are there the greater your hatred for God which results in more sinning which results in the need for more punishment. "
punish,punish,punish,punish,punish,punish,love,love,love,love,love,love,love......yawn. is that the best gods got, can god only think in simple black and white ways? either be punished or be loved?
"Then every moment of Satan's torment will be another moment of joy"
should you be taking joy in suffering, i dont care how evil somebody is, i would take no joy in suffering. this is a good example of the corrupt moral double standards of god. satan kills and he is evil, god kills and is good. satan kills and its because he has an evil plan, god kills because he has a good plan.
Originally posted by jaywillChristians have been saying that for almost 2000 years now. Hasn't happened yet.
Readers, I would advize you not to be too impressed by those who brag that this is the 21rst century.
In a short time there are going to happen things upon this earth that scientists will not be able to explain.
What are you going to do then ? Demons from the abyss will be unleashed from an occult world so strong that no scientists will be able to d ...[text shortened]... all them in line under Satan.
I advize you to get to know Christ now and the Holy Spirit.
Originally posted by sonhouseI am most obliged to you for fulfilling the prophetic word,
I said the same thing but they don't want to hear that. Their relish their religion of fear.
(2 Peter 3:3-4) . . .For you know this first, that in the last days there will come
ridiculers with their ridicule, proceeding according to their own desires and saying:
“Where is this promised presence of his? Why, from the day our forefathers fell asleep
[in death], all things are continuing exactly as from creation’s beginning.”
thanks, couldn't have done it without you!
why would people think that? god doesnt seem to be worried about what people think when flooded the planet killing millions.
Satan is a liar and a deceiver. He deceived one third of the angels of God -
"And another sign was seen in heaven and behold, ... a great red dragon ... and his tail drags away the third part of the stars of heaven, and he cast them to the earth ..." (See Rev. 12:3,4)
Creatures of God were deceived into thinking things which are not true. [/quote]
god doesnt seem to be worried about what people think
If God did not care what people of Noah's time THOUGHT then why this passage:
"And Jehovah saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that EVERY IMAGINATION OF THE THOUGHTS OF HIS HEART WAS ONLY EVIL CONTINUALLY" (Gen 6:5)
God was concerned about the uninterrupted, continuous evil imagination of the thoughts of man.
you cant have god both ways, when he floods he is killing evil doers, yet he's worried about gossip if he kills the root of evil.
Your criticism makes no sense to me.
Given Noah's thoughts and Enoch's thoughts (men of the time) in contrast to the continual evil thoughts of the majority, we see clearly what God prefered. And we also see Enoch saved from that judgment. We see Noah saved from that judgment.
So you are delusional that man's thinking means nothing to God and has no consequences. "The earth is filled with violence" (v.6) This violence originated in the corrupted thought life.
are you suggesting that god didnt know the first rebellion was coming? he has a fix now, so he didnt have a fix the first time? how does he know that it wont happen again if he's gotten it wrong the first time.
No I am not suggesting that god didn't know.
And I do not know HOW much God knows about eternity future. While we may speculate and philosophies a lot, the practical need before us is to be reconciled to God through Christ. I really don't HAVE to know all the answers to our speculative musings.
I can freely admit that there are some unknowns which I can only propose some imperfect answers to. None of these partial explanations are enough to freeze my heart from not responding to the gracious offer of redemption through the death and resurrection of Christ.
I am not hunting for a philosophical loophole that I may rationalize not being reconciled to God through Christ's salvation.
this is riddled with stupidity. the most intelligent being in the universe creates creatures 1/3 of his angels turn evil, 2/2 humans turn evil - this is gross stupidity and bad parenting/teaching, you cannot blame free will, free will does not create evil, if free will created evil how human children turn out wouldnt be connected to how they are brought up and educated, good and evil would be random, free will is still controlled by how our brains work, our brains are a product of our dna passed from our parents and learnt behavior as we grow up.
This accusation also makes no sense to me. If anyone in human history was ever qualified to charge God with "stupidity" it would be Jesus Christ. If you can point to Christ charging God with stupidity then I would be forced to take it much more seriously.
As it stands, with all the paradoxes, Christ refers to His Father as "Righteous Father". The accusation that you have intertained is that a kind of unrighteous stupidity should be charged against God.
Through the history of God's dealings I see tremendous wisdom and the ability to overcome every imaginable kind of obstacle placed in His way. I have to agree with Paul that God's foolishness is wiser than the wisdom of man.
Do you know what is stupid ? What is stupid is to self yourself for nothing. If you sell yourself to the Devil what do you think you will receive for doing so ?
Selling your soul to the devil for nothing - now that's stupid. This is the stupidity exemplified in a character like Judas Iscariot. When you can explain to me what possible benefit Judas could have derived to betray Christ, then maybe I can somehow see some dubious "wisdom" in not being reconciled to God through His gracious salvation.
This is the stupidity which drove a man to finally hate himself. When it dawned upon him what he had done to fight against the Son of God, how stupid he must have felt - to the point of wanting to hang himself.
But previously Satan had deceived him to consider himself a pretty clever person join the opposition party against Christ.
of coarse god created satan, it doesnt matter how satan turned out, god is responsible. god created his mind and his nature, god did nothing to help satan as he decended towards dark thoughts,
I don't think God created Satan. I told you and we just have to go our different ways here.
Now, I also told you that there are indications that the evil angels all had a span of time in which to repent. These evidences I gsther from a number of places in the Bible, all of which I will not go into now.
But arguably Psalm 82 shows God asking the gods how long they will continue to be in error. This Psalms begings -
"God stands in the congregation of God; He judges in the midst of the gods. How long will you judge unjustly and respect the persons of the wicked .." (v.1,2)
The audience is understood by many to be "the gods" or angelic beings. At any rate we can see God reasoning and seeking to correct them. Then God warns these "gods" -
I said, You are gods, And all of you are sons of the Most High. Nevertheless you will die like men ..." (v.6)
Now we know that elsewhere in both Job and in Genesis the angels were called the sons of God. For God to warn these sons that their consequence of evil doing will be to them as the death of men, suggests punishment is coming. But He seeks to correct them.
So I believe that there must have been some span of time in which Satan and the angelic rebels with him had time to repent. Now that time is probably over. For the eternal fire has been prepared for the devil and his angels (Matt. 25:41) .
Eventually the punishment had to be "prepared". And the other demonic creatures (whom are of a another class from fallen angels) also now seem to expect nothing but punishment:
"And behold, they [demons] cried out, saying, What do we have to do with You, Son of God? Have You come here before the time to torment us ?" (Matt. 8:29)
This is a tragic view of the opposition party against Christ and God. The opportunity to repent has come and gone. Now they only expect "the time" to someday arrive. That is the time in which they depart into that "prepared for the devil and his angels" .
Genesis 3 may also indicate that Satan had time in which his evil was at least restricted and perhaps could have been remedied. God says to the serpent -
"And Jehovah God said to the serpent, Because you have done THIS, You are cursed more than all the cattle ... etc'" (Gen 3:14)
This phraseology could possibly mean something like "THIS TIME ... YOU HAVE GONE TOO FAR". The "this" in "Because you have done THIS ..." seems to indicate some lower sinking of moral depravity beyond all limits.
Now I could be reading too much into Genesis 3:14 . But God's is the Judge of all the earth. It seems illogical that there would be judgment without any opportunity to be reconciled to God. And Psalm 82 has God apparently reaching out to superhuman beings for their correction, yet with a warning.
where was god to put an arm around him and help?
All the details of all of God's doings we do not have. I presented to you some evidence in Psalm 82 of God reaching out to superhuman "gods" apparently to adjust their wayward behavior.
The age of "sympathy for the Devil" may be over. Definitely God is reaching our to you and I in His Son Jesus Christ. That is what we need to consider.
Look at Revelation 20. Satan is further bound for 1,000 years while Christ establishes His millennial kingdom of peace. Then the Devil is loosed from his prison. Would you think that Satan would repent by then ?
Anyway, even after 1,000 years of seeing Christ's peaceful and righteous reign upon the earth, Satan is loosed and goes out to again deceive and opposition party against Christ.
"And when the thousand years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison. and will go out to DECEIVE THE NATIONS which are at the four courners of the earth, God and Magog, to gather them together for the war. Their number is like that of the sand of the sea." (Rev. 20:7,8)
The Devil is still up to his revolt. The time for you to be concerned about God's sympathetic arm around this being may be long, long, LONG over.
I would advize you not to be concerned for Satan's redemption any longer. I would suggest you consider the redemption of human beings through Christ. Satan is so evil that he could play on your sympathy to deceive you to join him in the eternal damnation to which he is going.
He doesn't want to go alone. And he expresses his hatred towards God by dragging men to be with him.
if god did, then god failed, making god fallible. if god is fallible then god makes mistakes, which means we should question everything god does.
The universe of controlled robots in which God pushes a button and we all respond with love toward Him, apparently does not exist.
If you decide this represents the "fallibility" of the Creator, that's your opinion. I think it is in error. Feel...
cont.
The universe of controlled robots in which God pushes a button and we all respond with love toward Him, apparently does not exist.
If you decide this represents the "fallibility" of the Creator, that's your opinion. I think it is in error. Feel the utter weight of your OWN sovereign will to DECIDE. Feel the weight of that freedom in your created being.
IF you don't want God, He will not force Himself upon you. That is your choice. But He is righteous. And your turning away will involve you in sinning against His law. And for the sheer thrill of rejecting God you also must inherit the byproduct of His right judgment against the sin that He hates.
I think it is much better to see His love in that He died on my behalf, if I would believe. His love constrains me.
what is it you love about him?
Everything. He is altogether lovely.
Can you read about the Son of God in the New Testament and not finally be melted with love for this Man ? This is God who became a man - Immanuel - "God with us".
he does nothing but set up silly rules and games that do not need to be there, how can you love somebody that has killed so much, because he offers you eternal life? shallow stuff.
I love the One Who raised Jesus from the dead. I love the One Who imparts His Spirit of Christ into my heart, freeing me, saving me, building me up with others, and causes me to realize the meaning of my created life and why I am here.
These "silly" rules are written on your own heart. You KNOW that certain things are just right and others are just wrong.
You shall not steal, does not seem silly to you when someone STEALS from you.
The most important "rule" is that if we believe into Christ we shall be saved. that is neither man-made nor silly. It is beyond marvelous.
its not just about offering redemption, if satan has gone to a dark place, lets say like a heroin addict, suffering from depression committing crime to pay for his habit. you do not just say "give it up and we will forgive you" it wouldnt work.
I am confident that though I have not all the details in the Bible, God is just with this rebel.
Look at the opening of the book of Job. It very much appears that God was seeking for Satan to open his own eyes and realize his own folly.
While the bulk of your comments here have been a kind of sympathtic view of Satan, I think his time is over. What about the gracious reconciliation offered towards you and I as human sinners ?
But if you really really really have that much empathy and sympathy for Satan the Devil, God will not force you to be in His kingdom. You do have that right to JOIN Satan in his destiny if you really want that.
I much prefer to join Christ in His glorious destiny as God/Man and Lord of all.
you have to work hard helping them everyday slowly dragging them out of the darkness until they are ready to do it for themselves. you do not give up on them. god has a responsibility, he created lucifer and let him become satan. if need be god could magic it all better.
We are not dealing with Darth Vader, Luke Skywalker's dad here. We are dealing with an evil that is as opposite to God as is possible to be.
Our focus should be on Christ. I think you err to focus on the Devil. And the more I read these comments the more the subtlety appears to me.
Satan likes two kinds of people:
1.) Those who deny his existence.
2.) Those with a morbid fascination with his existence.
I am beginning to think your comments display the latter type.
And since I want to focus on Christ, His work, His redemption, and anything I may have written about Satan was ONLY in view of focusing on Christ, I think I will stop here with any further comments on Satan.
And I think I am running out of space too.
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Originally posted by jaywilli have no morbid interest in satan. im interested in the morality of christianity. if satan has got me with his lies then so be it ill burn in hell for being tricked by a god like being with super intelligence, the master of lies, no shame in that. we all get tricked. if americans can be fooled into voting for bush twice, then we are all fallible.
Our focus should be on Christ. I think you err to focus on the Devil. And the more I read these comments the more the subtlety appears to me.
Satan likes two kinds of people:
1.) Those who deny his existence.
2.) Those with a morbid fascination with his existence.
I am beginning to think your comments display the latter type.
...[text shortened]... stop here with any further comments on Satan.
And I think I am running out of space too.[/b]
why do you think the only options are to be how god created us with freewill or like robots, are you saying that if our freewill was tweaked so we couldnt be bad we would then be robotic?