Seat of consciousness perhaps found in the brain:

Originally posted by sonhouse
Was that Adam and Eve before or after they got kicked out of the garden? And what about the other people you admitted were there along with A&E?

So you are saying men are superior to women's moral sense since Eve ate the apple of knowledge and therefore lost her moral sense she had before that?

You think A&E had perfect moral sense before that happened?

You figure Adam was ticked off at Eve for getting them both kicked out of the garden?

Adam and Eve had no children to teach until after they left the Garden of Eden. I would say Adam was just as guilty as Eve and maybe more so due to his position of responsibility. However, I do not see how this makes one more moral than the other. The fact is they both sinned.

By the time of Noah, the morals of the general population had gotten so bad that God had to step in to save mankind, then again at the time of Moses and again at the time of Christ.

Originally posted by JS357
Have you read any summaries or reviews of this work or anything about this author? From a biography at Amazon's page for the book:

"He has given reasons for moral vegetarianism and animal rights, for affirmative action (including quotas), for the humanitarian use of euthanasia, and for the idea that parents owe as much moral consideration to other people's ...[text shortened]... eir own."

So it appears that the opposite of what you say is true about his moral stance.

Not so.

" Western philosophy and religion, Rachels argues, have been shaken by the implications of Darwin's work, most notably the controversial idea that humans are simply a more complex kind of animal. Rachels assesses a number of studies that suggest how closely humans are linked to other primates in behavior, and then goes on to show how this idea undercuts the work of many prominent philosophers. Kant's famous argument that suicide reduces one to the level of an animal, for instance, is meaningless if humans are, in fact, animals. Indeed, humanity's membership in the animal kingdom calls into question the classic notions of human dignity and the sacredness of human life. What we need now, Rachels contends, is a philosophy that does not discriminate between different species, one that addresses each being on an individual basis. With this sweeping survey of the arguments, the philosophers, and the deep implications surrounding Darwinism, Rachels lays the foundations for a new view of morality. Vibrantly written and provocatively argued, Created from Animals offers a new perspective on issues ranging from suicide to euthanasia to animal rights. "

Sure, Rachel is concerned for the welfare of animals of whom man is no better.

Christ said that humans were of more value than the sparrows. Rachel would argue that they are not.

"Look at the birds of heaven. They do not sow nor reap nor gather into barns, yet your heavenly Father nourishes them. Are you not of more value than they ? " (Matt. 6:26)

I think Rachel seems to be arguing, he things, on behalf of Darwin against many Western philsophical and religious thought that would agree with man being of more value than the lower creatures.

So I don't think the book was presented unfairly by Turek and Giesler. But I have not read it.

Originally posted by stellspalfie
"A transcendent supernatural Designer can design into man's being moral law whether or not He provides it as verbal instructions, written commands, or just an intuitive realization. The inner moral law can exist in man regardless if he is a theist or not because he is simply created that way with a component transcending the material universe."

if t the brain? is this what you think? if so, what do you think the purpose of the brain is?

it seems you are now suggesting all thought and decision making happens out side of the brain? is this what you think? if so, what do you think the purpose of the brain is?

I am arguing that JUST BECAUSE we can locate in the material brain some physical activity when listening to Music, or Praying, or Doing Math, this does not mean that Beautiful can be reduced to a combination of molecules, or spirituality to a chemical formula, or mathematical truth to an number of electrons and protons.

Detection of this activity is not proof that these things are CREATED by this physical activity and consist merely of the activity's physical components.

Do you think such a philsophy is doing any favors for your Eastern Mysticism ?
I don't. You have something to lose here as well with your spiritual beliefs.

Originally posted by jaywill

it seems you are now suggesting all thought and decision making happens out side of the brain? is this what you think? if so, what do you think the purpose of the brain is?

I am arguing that JUST BECAUSE we can locate in the material brain some physical activity when listening to Music, or Praying, or Doing Math, this does not mean that ...[text shortened]... rn Mysticism ?
I don't. You have something to lose here as well with your spiritual beliefs.

you do have a point here. finding the antenna does not mean you have discovered the source of the broadcast.

but there are larger ramifications to the discovery of such research. both good and bad. it means the signal can be intercepted and perhaps traced to its source.

but more importantly, it means the signal can be artificially induced and people can be manipulated. it could be that they've always been manipulated.

Originally posted by jaywill
Not so.

[quote] " Western philosophy and religion, Rachels argues, have been shaken by the implications of Darwin's work, most notably the controversial idea that humans are simply a more complex kind of animal. Rachels assesses a number of studies that suggest how closely humans are linked to other primates in behavior, and then goes on to show how this ...[text shortened]... on't think the book was presented unfairly by Turek and Giesler. But I have not read it.

well, given that the bible endorses speciesism, it follows that he would not agree with mat 6;26.

you however, along with the people you sourced the quote from have misrepresented james rachel's views.

there is a lesson here. never trust a quote from a religionist.

Originally posted by jaywill

it seems you are now suggesting all thought and decision making happens out side of the brain? is this what you think? if so, what do you think the purpose of the brain is?

I am arguing that JUST BECAUSE we can locate in the material brain some physical activity when listening to Music, or Praying, or Doing Math, this does not mean that ...[text shortened]... rn Mysticism ?
I don't. You have something to lose here as well with your spiritual beliefs.

eastern mysticism? me? i think you have me confused sir. nothing mystic about what im saying. thought can be measured, science has it down to a t. in many experiments they can predict what you were going to do or think before you actually do it by reading the combination of brain patterns.

when you say thought cannot be reduced to a chemical formula, do you mean all thought? or just some thought? is it just the thought you think is special that comes from else where?

many people who suffer from mental illness that causes behavior problems, they think wrong thoughts, your theory would suggest this is because of their spiritual nature. yet science can treat them, it has several methods some chemical some physiological, these methods help fix or alter the brain patterns.....so how do they fix the spiritual?

your problem is you belittle the idea of chemicals uniting to create thought be reducing it to simplistic language. its not simplistic its highly complex. you wouldnt reduce whats going on in your laptop to a few simple chemical reaction would you? you know that there is millions of complex operations going on every second in your laptop. your brain is way more complex and involves way more chemicals.

its easy for me to think beauty can be created and understood by the brain, as i think the idea of this super complex organ firing off millions of electrical pulses, growing and changing all the time a beautiful thing.

Originally posted by jaywill

it seems you are now suggesting all thought and decision making happens out side of the brain? is this what you think? if so, what do you think the purpose of the brain is?

I am arguing that JUST BECAUSE we can locate in the material brain some physical activity when listening to Music, or Praying, or Doing Math, this does not mean that ...[text shortened]... rn Mysticism ?
I don't. You have something to lose here as well with your spiritual beliefs.

id be interested to know how you explain the ever changing morality of humans if our morality exists outside of us?

Originally posted by RJHinds
Adam and Eve had no children to teach until after they left the Garden of Eden. I would say Adam was just as guilty as Eve and maybe more so due to his position of responsibility. However, I do not see how this makes one more moral than the other. The fact is they both sinned.

By the time of Noah, the morals of the general population had gotten so bad ...[text shortened]... had to step in to save mankind, then again at the time of Moses and again at the time of Christ.

The amazing thing is you treat the A&E story as if it was reality.

Originally posted by stellspalfie
id be interested to know how you explain the ever changing morality of humans if our morality exists outside of us?

I claim that morality itself is not ever changing. What changes are the ways we evaluate a given moral situation - especially how we give relative values of other moral entities and of ourselves.

Originally posted by stellspalfie
eastern mysticism? me? i think you have me confused sir. nothing mystic about what im saying. thought can be measured, science has it down to a t. in many experiments they can predict what you were going to do or think before you actually do it by reading the combination of brain patterns.

when you say thought cannot be reduced to a chemical formula, ...[text shortened]... n firing off millions of electrical pulses, growing and changing all the time a beautiful thing.

eastern mysticism? me? i think you have me confused sir. nothing mystic about what im saying. thought can be measured, science has it down to a t. in many experiments they can predict what you were going to do or think before you actually do it by reading the combination of brain patterns.

Aren't you the poster who has expressed interest in Buddhist like concepts and meditation to tap into some cosmic realities of a more deistic sort ? I don't think I am consusing you with someone else.

But I know of no headway into the real attempts to scientifically predict thought or behavior. Its possible that someone is trying to do that.

when you say thought cannot be reduced to a chemical formula, do you mean all thought? or just some thought? is it just the thought you think is special that comes from else where?

I know that you cannnot place my thought into your test tube.
I know that you cannot place my love or hate or concept under slide to examine it under a microscope.

many people who suffer from mental illness that causes behavior problems, they think wrong thoughts, your theory would suggest this is because of their spiritual nature.

There certainly are spiritual problems related to wrong thinking in many instances. This is why Paul says we are to " be transformed by the renewing of the mind." In some cases mental illness does have a spiritual component. Guilt, real or exaggerated is often a component which could be healed by faith in Christ.

Being a relative of someone who was successfully treated from clinical depression with prescribed medicines I am not naive concerning professional medical assistance of problems like that.

I think we both can discuss this without hastening into generalizations or making false dichotomies. To see a demon behind every corner is one extreme. The other extreme would be to think a prescription from a Brave New World like pharmacy could cure all spiritual problems with the human soul.

Quite a bit of the material written in the New Testament was written by the physician Luke - ie. the Gospel under his name, and the book of Acts.
I have never thought that the Christian Gospel, therefore, is basically anti-medical advancement.

Mary Baker Eddy's Christian Science cult has leaned over into that extreme. That is a large sect with probably billions of dollars.

yet science can treat them, it has several methods some chemical some physiological, these methods help fix or alter the brain patterns.....so how do they fix the spiritual?

I know this very well. And in some cases as TWO pronged approach is helpful. And a wise person would not be forced into a position easily, that she or he must be exclusive about where they seek help from.

You can take Prozac and also come to Christ for attention to problems in the soul. Nothing is forbidding me, in the Bible, of seeking practical medical assistance as I also put my trust in God.

your problem is you belittle the idea of chemicals uniting to create thought be reducing it to simplistic language. its not simplistic its highly complex.

That is not my problem. You are generalizing. My brief posts merely pointed out the absurdity of the extreme. Some skeptics want to rush to the idea that there are only interacting molecules as a basis for morality.

The consummate naturalist, in his lust to rid his universe of God an ultimate Moral Legislator and Governor, rushes to a total materialistic naturalism. Some of us only want to show the price tag for his over generalization.

Don't read this as an extreme reactionary rejection of all medical research into physical components of problems in the soul and mind of humans. I don't think I gave that impression. But if so, it should be cleared up now.

I take medicine for hyper-tension. I know along with spiritual sources of anxiety some physiological ones exist as well. We see the Apostle Paul advizing his co-worker Timothy to take a natural way of healing his physical problems.
He told Timothy to take a little wine for his stomach problems.

Paul did not tell Timothy that he would send him a prayer cloth, although some people were healed of sicknesses by miraculous means from the apostles. Likewise, today, most Chrisrians realize there is both help from God directly and help from God indirectly through medical assistance.

you wouldnt reduce whats going on in your laptop to a few simple chemical reaction would you? you know that there is millions of complex operations going on every second in your laptop. your brain is way more complex and involves way more chemicals.

Being a computer programmer in the past, I of course realize that there is a lot involved in the execution of a computer instruction in the circuitry of the hardware and the language of the software and firmware.

I am not sure why your seem to be trying switch me to the opposite of what I am pointing out myself. There non-physical realities prove the inadaquacy of a total naturalism to explain our humanity.

But a total naturalism is what some skeptics desire. They lay hold of a total naturalism and total materialism in the hope that it will rid them of God. But it also rids them of a proper humanity. They render themselves less human when they attempt to exclude a transcendent supernatural God.

And the belief that morality is only genetically determined moves into this error.

Now if a total materialism is true then, everyone in all human history who has ever had a spiritual experience is MISTAKEN. Do you want to cast such a huge net ? Such a wide generalization does no favors for the Buddhist. Are such anti-theists willing to include thier own belief that spiritual experiences were had by Buddhist pioneers were also deceived by the electronic into their brains?

As long as there has been even ONE person with a genuine spiritual experience in human history, than a total materialistic naturalism is not true.


And while I'd like to finish my thoughts, I am called away to household matters. I'll have to continue latter.

its easy for me to think beauty can be created and understood by the brain, as i think the idea of this super complex organ firing off millions of electrical pulses, growing and changing all the time a beautiful thing.

I think there is a supernatural God and a supernatural component to my humanity. I think the same thing for other people.

Total naturalistic materialism robs us of our complete humanity for an incomplete one.

Superstition is another problem on the other side.

Originally posted by jaywill

eastern mysticism? me? i think you have me confused sir. nothing mystic about what im saying. thought can be measured, science has it down to a t. in many experiments they can predict what you were going to do or think before you actually do it by reading the combination of brain patterns.

Aren't you the poster who has expressed intere humanity for an incomplete one.

Superstition is another problem on the other side.

" Aren't you the poster who has expressed interest in Buddhist like concepts and meditation to tap into some cosmic realities of a more deistic sort ?"

nope, not me. you maybe are thinking of karolzy



" But I know of no headway into the real attempts to scientifically predict thought or behavior. Its possible that someone is trying to do that. "


there are lots of experiments using brain scans to predict behavior and thoughts. heres one - http://www.jneurosci.org/content/32/16/5549.abstract
my wife studies child development, you can see morals and behavior develop, love also develops due to a childs relationship with its parents. the love you feel is not spiritual its chemicals released by the body. we know, we know the chemicals and we know how they effect the brain. what would be the point of having chemical love and spiritual love at the same time. surly god would just have one systems.

do you think all emotions are spiritual? if so what is the purpose of the chemicals released into out system that we know make us feel such as serotonin? if you think only some emotions are spiritual then you are accepting that complex feelings can be chemical which you have already denied....so which is it?

" I know that you cannnot place my thought into your test tube.
I know that you cannot place my love or hate or concept under slide to examine it under a microscope. "

really!! wow!! well that wraps that up then. i cant fit my brain in a test tube or my penis or my arse but i can still think, p**s and s**t.

"There certainly are spiritual problems related to wrong thinking in many instances. This is why Paul says we are to " be transformed by the renewing of the mind." In some cases mental illness does have a spiritual component. Guilt, real or exaggerated is often a component which could be healed by faith in Christ."

how convenient for christians to have their illogical cake and eat it. only some 'mental issues are spiritual' there for you also imply that some are not spiritual so therefore must be chemical so therefore you are admitting again that complex human emotions can be chemical, why is paranoid schizophrenia chemical and love spiritual? because love is nice and feels magical and because its special to you?

" I think we both can discuss this without hastening into generalizations or making false dichotomies"

you are the person saying stupid things like your love doesnt fit in test tube or love is more complex than a few chemicals

"The consummate naturalist, in his lust to rid his universe of God an ultimate Moral Legislator and Governor, rushes to a total materialistic naturalism. Some of us only want to show the price tag for his over generalization. "

what is the price tag, do you think we will all loose our morals and start molesting kids and f*****g animals? why do countries that have less religion not fall into a pit of despair?

'Don't read this as an extreme reactionary rejection of all medical research into physical components of problems in the soul and mind of humans. I don't think I gave that impression. But if so, it should be cleared up now. '


but thats exactly what you are doing, you are picking and choosing which bits of medical research are true based on what conflicts with your beliefs. happiness, love, sadness, anger can all be measured love is a bit trickier because as its a subjective emotion and has many meanings but the chemical reactions in the bidy are there.

you tell me if love exists outside of your body why your body releases chemicals that end up with reactions in the areas of the brain assoiciated emotion and also leads to physiological reactions. why?


" I take medicine for hyper-tension. I know along with spiritual sources of anxiety some physiological ones exist as well. We see the Apostle Paul advizing his co-worker Timothy to take a natural way of healing his physical problems.
He told Timothy to take a little wine for his stomach problems. "

so whats spiritual about hyper-tension, if your hyper-tension was cured by science would that mean it wasnt spiritual?

"And the belief that morality is only genetically determined moves into this error"

im yet to hear how you explain how morality works in a spiritual sense, how does one gain our morals, how do you explain the changing of moral in an individual, why do people generally share the morals of the society they grow up in?

" As long as there has been even ONE person with a genuine spiritual experience in human history, than a total materialistic naturalism is not true. "

im not aware of one example of a genuine spiritual experience in human history


[b]could you please explain why children usually copy the behavior of their parents?

i have two senarios for you.

1 - timmy has two lovely parents, brilliant at parenting and brimming with love for timmy and the world, 9 times out of 10 how is timmy going to turn out?

2 timmy has two lovely parents but is abducted at the age of 1 month. he now has two disturbed violent parents that abuse him and treat him like an animal. as he get older they force him two do violent acts so often he becomes numb to it, how does timmy turn out 9 times out of 10.

question - how does timmy's spirituality define timmy's moral behavior?

Originally posted by stellspalfie
" Aren't you the poster who has expressed interest in Buddhist like concepts and meditation to tap into some cosmic realities of a more deistic sort ?"

[b] nope, not me. you maybe are thinking of karolzy



" But I know of no headway into the real attempts to scientifically predict thought or behavior. Its possible that someone is trying to d ...[text shortened]... tion - how does timmy's spirituality define timmy's moral behavior?[/b]

That last could be reset as identical twins, one stolen, one kept.

Originally posted by sonhouse
That last could be reset as identical twins, one stolen, one kept.

i almost went with twins but then i thought he may argue that the twins had different spirits. either way children are a perfect example how 9 times out of 10 we are products of our up-bringing, this doesnt leave much room for our 'spiritual morals' to effect who we are. if jaywill suggest our spirits can be effected by the physical world then that reduces them to a ghostly replica of the physical system we already have, meaning we have two systems doing the exact same thing.

its annoying me that in one breath jaywill will talk about how amazing the scientific world that god created is and how its complexity is testament to his genius and then in another breath belittle this system by saying emotions like love cannot be created by this system. surly if its gods system then god can make chemicals make humans feel anything he wants them too. its a case of having an image in their heads of how they like to think about god and then make all the pieces fit around it. the more we discover how the body works the more bits they have to juggle until you end up with a nonsensical argument that cannot fill in all the gaps. like when jaywill picks which mental illnesses are spiritual and which are not. crazy.

there are lots of experiments using brain scans to predict behavior and thoughts. heres one - http://www.jneurosci.org/content/32/16/5549.abstract
my wife studies child development, you can see morals and behavior develop, love also develops due to a childs relationship with its parents. the love you feel is not spiritual its chemicals released by the body.

My love for my parents is absolutely enfluenced in a significant part by the command of God which weighs upon my conscience -

"Honor your father and your mother, that your days may be extended upon the land which Jehovah your God is giving you." (Exodus 20:12)

Firstly this divine command puts the man and the woman on equal standing. Thus is debunked the exaggeration that the Bible is anti-womanist. But that's another topic.

Though I was brought up in the anarchistic 1960s in the US, and though thought I had plenty of reason to not honor my father and mother, I was cinvicted by the word of God that it was right to do so. For parents, as the source of my natural life, symbolically, all parents point back to our ultimate source - God.

So love and honor of my parents does have spiritual as well as psychological or socialogical component in my experience.

we know, we know the chemicals and we know how they effect the brain. what would be the point of having chemical love and spiritual love at the same time. surly god would just have one systems.

That is your style. That may not be God's style.

According to the revelation of the Bible we are a three part being made up of spirit and soul and body (1 Thess. 5:23) . So we are not merely the material body. We have an immaterial component consisting of the "spirit and soul" also.

While I don't claim to know everything about the spirit and the soul, I know they are real. And I know that my touch with Jesus Christ is real.

Now if we are only physical, I think man would have been able to invent life by now. We would get all the material parts of a living organism and find a way to create life. It has not been done yet.

And no, unlike Stephen Hawking, I do not consider a computer virus as a life form. I'd have to think about why. But I am pretty sure that a hacker's vomputer virus is not LIFE, even though it can reproduce itself.

So man has not yet created this LIFE. We know that LIFE always comes FROM LIFE. And I believe the ultimate source is an eternal and uncreated Person who is the Divine Life. The Bible refers to "the Father".

I do not jump to the conclusion that we should reduce the functions of soul and spirit to chemical reactions. However, we may notice some chemical reactions in the physical being at the presence of these matters.

do you think all emotions are spiritual?

I believe that emotions are something in the immaterial soul of man.
Remember, I said the New Testament identifies three major parts of the human make up - spirit and soul and body.

"And the God of peace sanctify you wholly, and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved complete, without blame, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ." (1 Thess. 5:23)

These THREE parts of my being are ME. Since I am one PERSON, it is not easy to make an absolute division of the three parts. But they are distinct. And best of all, Christ's full salvation covers not one, not two, but all three parts of my being - "sanctify you WHOLLY ... preserved COMPLETE" .

Any man-made science that presumes my WHOLE being is being helped by only giving attention to PART of my being, I would not use to substitute for God's full salvation in Christ. They circumvent important parts of my total humanity.

This is not to say that science can render some legitimate assistance on a limited basis to part of my being.

Now let me ask you. If the soul and spirit are only material chemical reactions, then which do you think we should work at

1.) Manufacturing the chemicals to eliminate bad behavior in human beings ?
2.) Manufacture the chemicals to remove any sense of wrong doing and guilt ?

I think some of us should avail ourselves of Jesus Christ who can release us from both the power of sin and the guilt of it as well.

if so what is the purpose of the chemicals released into out system that we know make us feel such as serotonin? if you think only some emotions are spiritual then you are accepting that complex feelings can be chemical which you have already denied....so which is it?

What I informed you of in this post was that emotions are something going in in the soul of man. They are soulical. They are not spiritual though they may indeed be influenced by the spiritual.

However, emotions could be enfluenced by other matters totally aside from the spiritual. As a happy psychological relationship or its opposite, or art, or music, or sports, or politics or idleness or many other things emotionally enfluencing us which have little to do with the exercise of our human spirit.

Then again repentence in prayer can be an exercise of the human spirit - "spirit AND soul AND body" . And repentence may involve some emotional movement. The love of the Wonderful Christ and the fellowship of communion with the Holy Spirit certainly infuses the soul with PEACE and JOY and PRAISE.

There the truly spiritual and the truly emotional are coordinating together.

" I know that you cannnot place my thought into your test tube.
I know that you cannot place my love or hate or concept under slide to examine it under a microscope. "

really!! wow!! well that wraps that up then.

Then next time with you, I suppose I should just get right to that point then.

i cant fit my brain in a test tube ... i can still think, p**s and s**t.

The issue is not does the failure to measure physically the immaterial hinder its use and existence.

That was never an issue. You cannot measure the feeling in my conscience of having sinned against the holy God or against my fellow man. That does not hinder me from repentance toward God.

Some kind of logical fallacy is at work in this sarcasm of yours.

Me:

"There certainly are spiritual problems related to wrong thinking in many instances. This is why Paul says we are to " be transformed by the renewing of the mind." In some cases mental illness does have a spiritual component. Guilt, real or exaggerated is often a component which could be healed by faith in Christ."

stella:
how convenient for christians to have their illogical cake and eat it.

You're losing me here. We are spirit and soul and body. We have problems with the spirit and the soul and the body. All three parts are the whole and complete human being.

God cares for all three parts. Man's science has some limited benefit to the body and the soul.

Take the simple problem in the soul of a learning problem. My child's grades improved when I got them a tutor or some training of the mind in study.

No reason to gloat in that that God is no longer needed. Conceivably the Holy Spirit could enluence me to seek professional help. This happened many times in the Bible, that God arranged or led someone to seek some kind of help in the mere human realm.

When I pray for a sick person I may pray from their divine healing. However I feel sometimes to pray that God would guide the doctors and give them a clear mind to render good professional assistance.

The Christian life can be wonderfully balanced. And a reading of the New Testament shows Paul to be very balanced.

By the way, the spiritual includes the high and perfect humanity of the man Jesus. The proper and perfect MAN is now available to me in the Holy Spirit. So the spiritual, in the Christian faith, includes not only the Divine God but the perfect human MAN Jesus.

All have become available to the believer. What an all inclusive and extensive salvation there is in Jesus Christ.

I didn't understand your gloat over "How convenient" or about me wanting to have some cake and eat it too.

God created us human spirit and human soul and human body. He loves and cares for all THREE parts.

I love Christ because He always addresses my WHOLE being. God created my whole being.

only some 'mental issues are spiritual' there for you also imply that some are not spiritual so therefore must be chemical so therefore you are admitting again that complex human emotions can be chemical, why is paranoid schizophrenia chemical and love spiritual? because love is nice and feels magical and because its special to you?

I am short of time right now to analyze your strawmen arguments.

I said total reduction of the emotions to chemicals is not truth. I said total reduction of the spiritual experience to chemicals is not truth. That is what I said.

Is it suppose to be a big suprise that chemical TEARS can be an indication of sorrow ? Of course I know that. Is SORROW tears and nothing more ? Of course not.

And prayers communing with the God Who is there and real cannot be reduced to your chemical analysis. Though you may like to do so, you cannot rid us of God and God's moral design of man to chemical reactions.

Furthermore, if you think on it a little bit more, I don't think you yourself would like such a Disutopian technocracy that claimed to have a pill or an injection for all human spiritual and soulical problems.

I thought Huxley attempted to bring that out in his novel Brave New World. But I would recommend another scenario - the results of Nazi Germany's medical experiments and the vision they had to "HELP" mankind in its evolutionary development.

[quote]
" I think we both can disc...