03 Oct 05
Originally posted by wibOkay, so if religion is fair game to be insulted and not respected
I see your point, but my answer is still yes. Criticism must be allowed and tolerated. Think about the problems involved in not allowing people to insult, criticize, or make fun of a religion.
How do we regulate something like that? Who determines what's an insult and what's warranted criticism? The Church? The congregation? Do we vote on it? What ...[text shortened]... g that has thrust itself upon the public. This goes to the very heart of free speech in the US.
what is to be protected that people hold dear? Their sexual desires,
their choice in dress, their mommies, their kids, what do you
believe should be off limits?
Kelly
03 Oct 05
3 edits
Insulting and ridiculing Islam has lead to a very nasty situation in the Netherlands, including political murder. People who are in favour of such a "special" treatment of religion should become aware of their societal responsabilities. Such an intolerant stance is unacceptable and has nothing to do with Freedom of Speech but with the misuse of this particular freedom. Freedom of Speech is not a blank cheque to ridicule and degrade other people belonging to different religions or secular convictions.
What we need is people who are prepared to enter into a civil and respectful dialogue with people from another race, religion or secular conviction.
What we certainly do not need in Europe, or the world for that matter, is an American inspired "Anything Goes" kind of freedom.
03 Oct 05
Originally posted by KellyJayGood question.
Okay, so if religion is fair game to be insulted and not respected
what is to be protected that people hold dear? Their sexual desires,
their choice in dress, their mommies, their kids, what do you
believe should be off limits?
Kelly
I believe everything is open for discussion in our society and that discussion should include criticism.
Here's the best example I can think up quickly. Say there's a rally in support of gay rights. A bunch of people are waving signs, marching in a parade, wearing outrageous and revealing outfits, and basically shouting out all sorts of pro-gay rhetoric. So be it.
Across the street is an anti-gay group. They're waving their signs, shouting their slogans, and basically doing everything in reverse of the pro-gay crowd. Except the outifts. There are no leather longs visible from the anti-gay crowd. 🙂
That is exactly the way it should be. Everybody gets a voice. If the pro-gay crowd is going to throw their beliefs and their lifestyle into the public eye, then the public has every right to demonstrate against them.
I feel the same way about religion. But not just religion, I feel that way about every topic, group, or whatever that opens itself up to the public. They're fair game.
03 Oct 05
2 edits
Originally posted by ivanhoeIt happens like that with everyone, there are people who if you
Insulting and ridiculing Islam has lead to a very nasty situation in the Netherlands, including political murder. People who are in favour of such a special treatment for religion should become aware of their societal responsabilities. Such an intolerant stance is unacceptable.
insult their family they will come after you, if you insult their
race, they will come after you, and so on. It is not just religion,
that requires special treatment, but people in general. The thing
I dislike is that I do have things I believe are holy and special
that get trashed daily here and else where. I don't mind
disagreements I don't even mind people disliking what I hold
dear as holy, but do they have to do so with insult and not at
a minim treat what I care about with respect while they disagree?
What is wrong with common courtesy when addressing
someone who you have a deep disagreement with? Why must
it degrade into a nasty smear campaign and it be considered
a right to do so? It shouldn’t be illegal but decency should
at least demand respect be shown while disagreements are
being hashed out.
Kelly
03 Oct 05
3 edits
Originally posted by KellyJayI agree. People must be very afraid indeed if they take refuge in such uncivil and intolerant behaviour. Verbal violence is the prelude to physical violence. I have experienced this here in my country. It is very sad to see how the Netherlands have changed the past twenty or thirty years under liberal rule.
It happens like that with everyone, there are people who if you
insult their family they will come after you, if you insult their
race, they will come after you, and so on. It is not just religion,
that requires special treatment, but people in general. The thing
I dislike is that I do have things I believe are holy and special
that get trashed daily h ...[text shortened]... cency should
at least demand respect be shown while disagreements are
being hashed out.
Kelly
03 Oct 05
Originally posted by ivanhoeThat's an exaggeration Ivanhoe. Verbal violence doesn't always lead to physical violence. You just don't like anyone criticizing your beliefs.
I agree. People must be very afraid indeed if they take refuge in such uncivil and intolerant behaviour. Verbal violence is the prelude to physical violence. I have experienced this here in my country. It is very sad to see how the Netherlands have changed the past twenty or thirty years under liberal rule.
So you have two choices. Fire back and defend your faith/beliefs (which you do) or stop promoting it publically.
03 Oct 05
3 edits
Originally posted by wibwib: "That's an exaggeration Ivanhoe."
That's an exaggeration Ivanhoe. Verbal violence doesn't always lead to physical violence. You just don't like anyone criticizing your beliefs.
So you have two choices. Fire back and defend your faith/beliefs (which you do) or stop promoting it publically.
Is it ?
wib: "Verbal violence doesn't always lead to physical violence."
I did not claim it always does.
wib: "You just don't like anyone criticizing your beliefs."
Why is it people keep confusing "criticizing one's beliefs" and "insulting degrading intolerant behaviour" ?
There still is a big fundamental difference in my view.
How in the world can there be a constructive and fruitful dialogue between people if respect is lacking ?
wib: "So you have two choices. Fire back and defend your faith/beliefs (which you do) or stop promoting it publically.
Hopefully we have not degenerated into slum-gangs trying to "communicate" with eachother, but sometimes it sure looks, and sounds, that way.
03 Oct 05
Originally posted by sjegThat statement was made in response to an issue with an RHP user's profile. With respect to this site, I can easily find a basis for that claim. For example, in the Spirituality forum, dj2becker suggests evolutionism is the reason Hitler and Stalin did the things they did. Please note that this is entirely irrelevant to the topic, which was whether or not evolution is statistically possible. Then he says that anyone who isn't a Christians is as bad as Hitler.
You have to be joking! Is there any basis for that statement, because it's a pretty big one?
The Spirituality forum was created because non Christians were getting annoyed at how Christians were using the Debates forum to spam about their religion. For example, Blindfaith101 spamming the forum with threads all titled "THE WORD OF GOD".
I've yet to see a single obnoxious post by a Jew or Muslim here.
04 Oct 05
Originally posted by AThousandYoungGrr!
That statement was made in response to an issue with an RHP user's profile. With respect to this site, I can easily find a basis for that claim. For example, in the Spirituality forum, dj2becker suggests evolutionism is the reason Hitler and Stalin did the things they did. Please note that this is entirely irrelevant to the topic, which was whethe ...[text shortened]... titled "THE WORD OF GOD".
I've yet to see a single obnoxious post by a Jew or Muslim here.
Why does every discussion on a serious topic involving Christianity and religion in general have to become debased into a criticism of extreme Evangelist posters.
How many Christians are there in the world? How many Evangelists?
Look outside of your national frontiers!! A handful of extremists who have very little to do with Christianity itself it should not contaminate every debate on these forums- especially when I have yet to see someone of that description posting here.
You might as well dimiss eveything bit of theology of the last two-thousand years on the basis that Rev. Ian Paisley is an evil madman. So what? What does that have to do with anything?
I do not know the people you are talking about (though I might readily believe you, as I have seen similar types posting here in the past).
However, I do not accept as an excuse that people are only reacting to them!
04 Oct 05
Originally posted by sjegOne man's extremist is another man's leader. I consider the Pope to be an extremist. Millions of people apparently disagree with me. Either that or they like following an extremist.
Grr!
Why does every discussion on a serious topic involving Christianity and religion in general have to become debased into a criticism of extreme Evangelist posters.
How many Christians are there in the world? How many Evangelists?
[b]Look outside of your national frontiers!! A handful of extremists who have very little to do with Christianity i ...[text shortened]... e in the past).
However, I do not accept as an excuse that people are only reacting to them![/b]
But your point is certainly a good one. You're right, every single group, religion, profession or whatever seems to have an extreme branch. That's just the way things go.
04 Oct 05
1 edit
Originally posted by sjegWe're not talking about the world here. We're talking about RHP. At least, the insult in question here is on RHP and is a reaction to people on RHP.
Grr!
Why does every discussion on a serious topic involving Christianity and religion in general have to become debased into a criticism of extreme Evangelist posters.
How many Christians are there in the world? How many Evangelists?
[b]Look outside of your national frontiers!! A handful of extremists who have very little to do with Christianity i ...[text shortened]... e in the past).
However, I do not accept as an excuse that people are only reacting to them![/b]
If you don't want people associating you or Christianity with the obnoxious Christians here, then be vocal in telling them to stop being so f@cking obnoxious.
04 Oct 05
1 edit
Originally posted by sjegMy 2p take:
An interesting point.
I'm playing a game with my mate Moldy, and I ask him about his message under his handle, which read at the time that his location was:
"pissing on bibles".
I asked Moldy what this was about, and he informed me this was an adverse reaction to some posters whom he considered as categorising him, and posters similar, as anti-reli ...[text shortened]... rs.
(Moldy knows I'm posting this discussion, so he might want to put forward his ideas too)
1. Most people in Western society are, at least nominally, Christian (if only for weddings and funerals). Hence, Christianity is (again, nominally) the majority religion. In most countries, the majority religion does not receive any protection under the law. In India, for instance, the rise of right wing Hindu parties in recent years is related to the general perception that Hinduism has been discriminated against and, while other minority religions receive special protection, Hinduism does not.
2. Even though, as I mentioned in (1), the majority are nominally Christian, not too many (these days at least) are practising Christians. So, in a sense, secularists could have a false sense of "intimate knowledge" about Christianity when, in fact, this knowledge is based on popular/media perception (e.g. tele-evangelists).
3. Related to (2), I think that most secularists in the West simply do not "know" as much about Islam and Judaism as they do about Christianity (whether their knowledge of the latter is well-founded or not). It's hard to offend something when you don't really know much about it.
4. In popular perception, at least, Christianity is seen as the leading obstacle to human progress (as evidenced in views of the "Dark Ages" ). So, many secularists have a particular hatred of Christianity in particular. Part of this is factual, but a good part is propaganda (See the discussion on the Inquisition in the "Catholicism and the Intrinsically Disordered" thread). Some of it is anti-Catholic propaganda that seems to have extended to all Christianity over time. Some of it is a more modern form of propaganda that seems to have roots in the secular movement itself.
Good posts, btw.