02 Feb 12
3 edits
Originally posted by Rajk999
So God sent his son Jesus Christ to preach and tell you what you have to do.
Christ sent the Apostles to preach. And you rather listen to some moron called Watchman Nee ? Incredible !!
I never told you any opinion of mine. I have no opinion on what is required for salvation.
What I do know is what Christ and all the Apostles said.
So God sent his son Jesus Christ to preach and tell you what you have to do.
First of all. He told me to believe.
First of all He told me to stop my doing, my working, my laboring and believe into Himself.
I don't get that from you unfortunately. At least it really doesn't come through clearly. You sound usually more like one of the Pharisees or the Judiazers who hounded Paul and sought ruin the churches in Galatia.
Christ sent the Apostles to preach. And you rather listen to some moron called Watchman Nee ? Incredible !!
What do you know about Watchman Nee ?
Brother Watchman Nee was martyred for his Lord Jesus in a Communist prison. There as a preacher of the Gospel he voluntarily spent the last 20 years of his life for his faithfulness to the hundreds of local churches raised up through his labors. He had opportunity to escape the Communist takeover of China. He chose not to escape to Taiwan or somewhere else because of his faithfulness to those whom he served.
You could never hold a candle to Brother Watchman Nee. He died by martyrdom for his faithfulness to his consecration to serve the Lord.
But that is not as important as what the word of God says to which Brother Nee was consecrated. And when we are talking about eternal redemption and receiving the GIFT of eternal life the only requirement is FAITH.
"For by grace you have been saved through faith, AND THIS NOT OF YOURSELVES; it is the GIFT of God; Not of works that no one should boast" (Ephesians: 2:8,9)
We are ONLY speaking right now of the initial gift of salvation.
How did Paul say we are saved ??
"For by grace you have been saved through faith".
What "work" do I have to boast in for being saved ? I have NO work to boast in because this salvation is "not of works". If it is of works then it is not "the gift of God".
It is not the wages of my labor " For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this not of yourselves; it is the GIFT of God ..."
Of works is this salvation or NOT of works is this salvation ?
" ... it is the GIFT of God; Not of works that no one should boast."
Now when you have understood this and you THEN want to go on to talk about serving, maturing, growing, building, building up with other saints, encreasing in consecration, and general maturity, then THAT particular subject can be examined with its relevant teachings.
When you have understood that the GIFT of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ, not of works, then we can go on from the FOUNDATION of the Christian life to speak of other matters.
I never told you any opinion of mine. I have no opinion on what is required for salvation. What I do know is what Christ and all the Apostles said.
Some of your interpretations are wrong. If I understand you rightly, you are legal about the GIFT of eternal life through Jesus Christ. And every verse you think to throw at me I already anticipate how you intend to use it. I regard your use of some of them as twistings.
Learn also something about Brother Watchman Nee before you call such a faithful servant of the Lord a moron.
http://www.watchmannee.org/
02 Feb 12
1 edit
A short portion of Brother Nee's personal testimony, copied without permission:
On the evening of April 29, 1920, I was alone in my room. I had no peace of mind. Whether I sat or reclined, I could find no rest, for within was this problem of whether or not I should believe in the Lord. My first inclination was not to believe in the Lord Jesus and not to be a Christian. However, that made me inwardly uneasy. There was a real struggle within me. Then I knelt down to pray. At first I had no words with which to pray. But eventually many sins came before me, and I realized that I was a sinner. I had never had such an experience in my life before that time. I saw myself as a sinner and I also saw the Savior. I saw the filthiness of sin and I also saw the efficacy of the Lord's precious blood cleansing me and making me white as snow. I saw the Lord's hands nailed to the cross, and at the same time I saw Him stretching forth His arms to welcome me, saying, "I am here waiting to receive you." Overwhelmed by such love, I could not possibly reject it, and I decided to accept Him as my Savior. Previously, I had laughed at those who believed in the Lord, but that evening I could not laugh. Instead, I wept and confessed my sins, seeking the Lord's forgiveness. After making my confession, the burden of sins was discharged, and I felt buoyant and full of inward joy and peace. This was the first time in my life that I knew I was a sinner. I prayed for the first time and had my first experience of joy and peace. There might have been some joy and peace before, but the experience after my salvation was very real. Alone in my room that evening, I saw the light and lost all consciousness of my surroundings. I said to the Lord, "Lord, You have really been gracious to me."
02 Feb 12
Originally posted by jaywillHe is a man. Christ will judge him like all other men.
A short portion of Brother Nee's personal testimony, copied without permission:
[b] On the evening of April 29, 1920, I was alone in my room. I had no peace of mind. Whether I sat or reclined, I could find no rest, for within was this problem of whether or not I should believe in the Lord. My first inclination was not to believe in the Lord Jesus and no ...[text shortened]... f my surroundings. I said to the Lord, "Lord, You have really been gracious to me." [/b]
02 Feb 12
Originally posted by jaywillFirst, can you provide a reference for where this is in the Bible ?So God sent his son Jesus Christ to preach and tell you what you have to do.
First of all. He told me to [b]believe.
First of all He told me to stop my doing, my working, my laboring and believe into Himself.
I don't get that from you unfortunately. At least it really doesn't come through clearly. You sound usually more lik ...[text shortened]... l such a faithful servant of the Lord a moron.
http://www.watchmannee.org/[/b]
..he told me to stop my doing, my working, my laboring and believe into Himself.
Next, a 5 yr old can see clearly from my posts that I have produced no interpretations. I have quoted verses verbatim .. the exact words of Christ, Paul, John, James.
Here they are again.
Christ Matt 25 : Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
(Matthew 25:34-36)
James But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? ... by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. .. For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. (James 2:20-26)
John1 John 2:3-5 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
Paul 1 Cor 13:2 ... and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing...
No INTERPRETATION. Take it at face value.
Jaywill, you elevate a man, above and beyond what he is - just a fallible man. You are like the Catholics whom you condemn.
Worse than that, you place his teachings above the teachings of Christ and all the Apostles..
Even worse, you go around preaching and teaching a fallible man's FALSE doctrine. There is a special curse/punishment for false teachers in the Bible.
You cannot be serious about your salvation.
02 Feb 12
Originally posted by Rajk999
First, can you provide a reference for where this is in the Bible ?
..he told me to stop my doing, my working, my laboring and believe into Himself.
Next, a 5 yr old can see clearly from my posts that I have produced no interpretations. I have quoted verses verbatim .. the exact words of Christ, Paul, John, James.
[quote]Here they are again.
...[text shortened]... urse/punishment for false teachers in the Bible.
You cannot be serious about your salvation.
First, can you provide a reference for where this is in the Bible ?
..he told me to stop my doing, my working, my laboring and believe into Himself.
What do you think the REAL significance of the Sabbath is ?
It is a symbol of stopping our work in order just to FEAST on God Himself.
More on this perhaps latter. But from John's Gospel -
"Then they said to Him, What shall we do that we may work the works of God ? Jesus answered and said to them, This is the work of God, that you believe ino Him whom He has sent." (John 6:28,29)
The stopping of WORK on the Sabbath is mighty symbolic in God's economy. The WORK for eternal life is to believe INTO the living Person of Jesus Christ.
I have to go and come back latter.
02 Feb 12
Originally posted by SwissGambitI do not say people spend million of life times looking for God.
That doesn't logically follow. If God is so inaccessible that people may literally spend millions of lifetimes trying to find him (as you said in another thread), then wouldn't it seem natural that imperfect man didn't begin the 'true religion' until after many many years of trying and searching?
I say that they spend millions of life times ignoring God and therefore simply return to this world of suffering over and over again.
A person can return to God even in this life time if they follow true religion and develop love for God.
Who is doing this?
02 Feb 12
Originally posted by jaywillEvery person who lives has the Spirit of God within and in fact the spirit of God never ever leaves him/her.I know Christians would like to believe that all Christians have the Holy Spirit in them, but there is just no Biblical support for that.[/i]
Yes there is.
[b]"Yet if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not of Him." (Rom. 8:9)
If you have the Spirit of Christ you are of Christ - a Christian.
If anyone do ...[text shortened]... is the word "No". That is after "Mommy" or "Daddy".[/b]
The Vedas call that spirit of God the Super Soul. or parramattma in Sanskrit.
02 Feb 12
Originally posted by jaywillNo references then. Just more nonsense interpretations.First, can you provide a reference for where this is in the Bible ?
..he told me to stop my doing, my working, my laboring and believe into Himself.
What do you think the [b]REAL significance of the Sabbath is ?
It is a symbol of stopping our work in order just to FEAST on God Himself.
More on this perhaps latter. But ...[text shortened]... s to believe INTO the living Person of Jesus Christ.
I have to go and come back latter.[/b]
The truth is that Christ never said
" .. to stop my doing, my working, my laboring and believe into Himself."
02 Feb 12
Originally posted by knightmeisterSecond request ...
To continue in the commandments of Christ, is a lifetime of the works which Christ commanded us to do. ----------Rajk999
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I wouldn't particularly disagree with much of what you say. However , I would ask you to consider HOW a person follows the commandments o ...[text shortened]... hen we have got it the wrong way around.
Do you think you can serve God without his help?
Any supporting references for this :
>>>>>>>> I thought the Bible was fairly clear in that it tells us that we obey God via the grace of the Holy Spirit (ie we are empowered to serve him). Therefore , we need God's help to follow Christ - yes? If this is so then one must receive the Holy Spirit first in order to follow him. But if we think we must follow him IN ORDER to receive the Spirit then we have got it the wrong way around. <<<<<<<<<<<<
You say :
RECEIVE HOLY SPIRIT FIRST
THEN
FOLLOW CHRIST
Please some references. Thanks.
02 Feb 12
2 edits
Originally posted by Rajk999
No references then. Just more nonsense interpretations.
The truth is that Christ never said
" .. to stop my doing, my working, my laboring and believe into Himself."
No references then. Just more nonsense interpretations.
The truth is that Christ never said
" .. to stop my doing, my working, my laboring and believe into Himself."
I gave you a reference in the Gospel of John - John 6:28,29, as plain as day, as clear as glass.
Perhaps you have eyes but see not.
02 Feb 12
Originally posted by twhiteheadAh but in order to "know that God is not there" in your life somewhere you must have some idea of what you imagine God is like. If I ask you if your shirt is red you cannot answer if you have no idea already of what red is. You cannot say my "shirt is not red" without having some idea of redness.
That 'way' is so funny its not even true. I do not 'already know' God is there in my life and I don't believe that I ever will. He doesn't seem 'far off' he seems not to exist. You are attempting to present as evidence something that isn't there and trying to pass it off by claiming that I will only know it in the future, or I am too blind to see it now e ...[text shortened]... e day you will come to recognise it" this is evidence that God doesn't exist". See?
You say God is not there , but how do you actually know? What if God is not what you expected? You must have some expectation of what God is like in order to sday that he's not there , otherwise you can't respond.
02 Feb 12
Originally posted by LemonJello1) God is not a proposition - he's a living presence
[b]First of all I would accept that feelings of love can be produce via evolutionary natural urges. Romantic love (eros) is not the same as the love of God (agape).
I realize that 'agape' has been co-opted by god botherers, although there is no necessary religous connotation to the term. But as you should know (maybe you are just playing coy here) ...[text shortened]... ll, some things do not change. I am glad to see you back, though, for what it's worth.[/b]
2) I don't claim to have grand insights only the simple truth of His presence with us
3) You don't seem to have answered mty original question - have you ever felt you have been strengthened by "something" at a time of need?
4) Your intellectualisation (IMO) seems to mask a deep seated anger at God and Faith. The way you write has an undertone of anger that betrays a lack of objectivity.
5) Bear in mind that God confounds the intellectual and the clever and reveals his truth to children (for example) instead - and if you think about that's the way it should be because otherwise the truth of Christ would only be open to those with degrees and the like.
6) I think you are quite capable of perceiving the truth - infact you might possibly make a better Christian than me (it wouldn't be too hard) - what you need to realise is that it won't happen the way you think it will. No-one can know God apart from the Holy Spirit.
02 Feb 12
Originally posted by jaywillThis passage John 6:29 .. This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent ..No references then. Just more nonsense interpretations.
The truth is that Christ never said
" .. to stop my doing, my working, my laboring and believe into Himself."
I gave you a reference in the Gospel of John - [b]John 6:28,29, as plain as day, as clear as glass.
Perhaps you have eyes but see not.[/b]
is saying the the work of God is for us [the followers] to believe in Christ.
How does one believe in Christ .. by talking, or by thinking ? Believing is an ACTION word.. and its all over the teachings of all the Apostles. You believe by DOING. Same John 6 :63
It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life. ... Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.
(John 6:63-68)
The words of Christ is what is profitable. Peter repeats it .. WORDS OF CHRIST IS ETERNAL LIFE .. THAT MEANS HIS COMMANDMENTS.
Your idea of sitting and meditating, and eating and drinking Christ and knowing Christ and the Triune God to the exclusion of good works is the road to damnation.
1 John2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
02 Feb 12
1 edit
Originally posted by Rajk999
This passage John 6:29 .. This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent ..
is saying the the work of God is for us [the followers] to believe in Christ.
How does one believe in Christ .. by talking, or by thinking ? Believing is an ACTION word.. and its all over the teachings of all the Apostles. You believe by DOING. S ...[text shortened]... , I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. [/i][/b]
Your idea of sitting and meditating, and eating and drinking Christ and knowing Christ and the Triune God to the exclusion of good works is the road to damnation.
Quote me where I used the words "sitting" and "meditating".
If you do not provide these quotes I will assume you bear false witness.
As for eating and drinking? Those are the words out of the mouth of Jesus in the Gospel of John chapters 5-7.
03 Feb 12
2 edits
Originally posted by knightmeister1) God is not a proposition - he's a living presence
1) God is not a proposition - he's a living presence
2) I don't claim to have grand insights only the simple truth of His presence with us
3) You don't seem to have answered mty original question - have you ever felt you have been strengthened by "something" at a time of need?
4) Your intellectualisation (IMO) seems to mask a deep seated anger at G won't happen the way you think it will. No-one can know God apart from the Holy Spirit.
I've never made the (daft) claim that God is a proposition. 'God exists' is a proposition, and it is a false one when the 'God' at issue is the God you've described on these boards. I've already explained to you through detailed arguments (I don't know how many times now in how many threads) that your conception of God is incoherent. (I have also explained why your conception of freedom is incoherent too.) You can keep just parroting claims that tacitly assume the truth of this proposition that God exists (such as the claim that God is a living presence); but to do so is just question-begging. You do understand, right, that whether or not God exists is generally exactly what is at issue in debates between a believer and a non-believer? You do not get to simply assert the truth of exactly what is at issue. That's called begging the question.
2) I don't claim to have grand insights only the simple truth of His presence with us
Okay, then you do not claim to have grand insights; you only claim to have a question-begging insight. Not sure how that improves your position any.
3) You don't seem to have answered mty original question - have you ever felt you have been strengthened by "something" at a time of need?
I did respond to your original question. Perhaps you haven't been paying attention. I'll go through it again for you. Yes, I have experienced such things as what you cited, such as feeling loved or feeling strengthened or rejuvenated in a trying time. These are experiences that occur to members of our species from time to time, as you are probably aware. These experiences, however, have patently plausible explanations that in no way require taking on the supposition that God exists. In fact, to me there seems nothing about such experiences that would even remotely warrant taking such a supposition on for explanatory purposes. You, for some reason, seem to want to imply that I am wrong on that point, but in order to convince me that such would be warranted you would need to provide some actual reasons why explanations invoking God are better in this capacity than explanations that do not invoke God. These reasons are what exactly? Please explicitly list them.
4) Your intellectualisation (IMO) seems to mask a deep seated anger at God and Faith. The way you write has an undertone of anger that betrays a lack of objectivity.
I am sorry that you find it so taxing to employ some critical thought and reasonsing skills. Crazy me, I am actually interested in what justification, if any, you may actually have for your views. Crazy me, I actually ask for reasons in debates.
You may want to ask yourself what purpose you are serving in this manner of witnessing. You may want to ask yourself what services you are doing to yourself and your faith in these matters. As is, you have been told repeatedly by critical atheists who take debate in these matter seriously that your approach is if anything dissuasive and insulting and that it reflects poorly on your faith. I have great respect for theists who take rational defense of their Christianity seriously (think Alvin Plantinga or some such); and I take such debates seriously. You may want to ask yourself why I do not approve of your MO.
5) Bear in mind that God confounds the intellectual and the clever and reveals his truth to children (for example) instead - and if you think about that's the way it should be because otherwise the truth of Christ would only be open to those with degrees and the like.
If God purposefully confounds me, then you should of course blame God for my inability to see the "simple truth" that He exists. And He should probably rethink this strategy since it seems rather flawed: presumably, the idea is for children to mature into intellectual and clever adults.
I'm glad you bring up the analogy of becoming like a child because yes it does speak to the problem here. The problem is that you actually think that becoming as a child is something to be valued in this sort of matter. It's not. That children are more prone to uncritically swallow some article of faith is not indicative of some virtue. Rather, it reflects the fact that such children are not in the position to understand the value of justification for one's view. What is to be valued in debates such as this is the give and take of reasons that lend rational justification to one's view. Children do not understand this because they are still in the early stages of developing such understanding. So, yes, you are like the child here and I'm like the clever adult because I understand the value of the practices of justification whereas you do not. News flash, that's actually a BAD thing for you in debates.
6) I think you are quite capable of perceiving the truth
Thanks.