Simple Truth of Christ

Originally posted by knightmeister
Bear in mind that God confounds the intellectual and the clever and reveals his truth to children (for example) instead.

Wow, the simple minded. Did you guys see the thread in the debate forum about that UK study correlating low IQ with social conservatives and their simple minds finding comfort of structure and hiearchy in religious organizations.

Originally posted by jaywill

Your idea of sitting and meditating, and eating and drinking Christ and knowing Christ and the Triune God to the exclusion of good works is the road to damnation.

Quote me where I used the words "sitting" and "meditating".

If you do not provide these quotes I will assume you bear false witness.

As for eating and drinking? Those are the words out of the mouth of Jesus in the Gospel of [b]John chapters 5-7. [/b]

The actual words you use are irrelevant to the point.
Christ preached love and good works and following his commandments.
You preach talking and enjoying and experiencing the Triune God .. whatever that means. Thats not the doctrine of Christ.

Originally posted by knightmeister

I have had some very specific and tangible experiences of the Holy Spirit where I was left in little doubt I was standing in the presence of God. Many Christians will testify to these experiences.

and many people suffer from delusions. have you considered the fact that such "experiences" are felt by people of other religions as well and that those experiences that they have reaffirm their own respective faiths?

what you have is not evidence of a holy spirit or god. what you have is evidence of the frailty of the human brain and the states of chemical highs it can reach.

Originally posted by knightmeister
Ah but in order to "know that God is not there" in your life somewhere you must have some idea of what you imagine God is like. If I ask you if your shirt is red you cannot answer if you have no idea already of what red is. You cannot say my "shirt is not red" without having some idea of redness.

You say God is not there , but how do you actually k ...[text shortened]... on of what God is like in order to sday that he's not there , otherwise you can't respond.

And you equally cannot say "God is there". Either we can both know what God is, or neither of us can. You cannot honestly claim that only you know what God is and its your personal secret.

Originally posted by twhitehead
And you equally cannot say "God is there". Either we can both know what God is, or neither of us can. You cannot honestly claim that only you know what God is and its your personal secret.

You missed the point. I am simply saying that in order to decide whether something is there or not (or nay proposition for that matter) you need to have an idea in your head first.

If I say to you that %&*(^$%$* is there (or is true) - you cannot take it any further because you must first define it or imagine it.

The problem is that most people don't know who God really is and they go off looking for something or expecting something incorrectly. That's why CS Lewis said "The God I believe in is not the god you don't believe in."

BTW- It's not my "personal secret" - millions do know Him and God is not elitist about who he reveals himself too.

Originally posted by VoidSpirit
and many people suffer from delusions. have you considered the fact that such "experiences" are felt by people of other religions as well and that those experiences that they have reaffirm their own respective faiths?

what you have is not evidence of a holy spirit or god. what you have is evidence of the frailty of the human brain and the states of chemical highs it can reach.

I spent many years considering questions such as these and I do believe that people can think they are having experiences of God which are actually not. I don't have a problem with people from other religions experiencing the Holy Spirit and it might lead them to become confirmed in their own faith . However , I think ultimately Christianity has the only clear and coherent theology to talk about God's presence with us.

Bear in mind that we are not just talking about fragmented experiences here that are like drug induced highs. The way God's Spirit works is not fragmented. It's all part of a package. My experiences of Him are not isolated but are part of a series of experiences that have caused me to become a gentler and more pure hearted person (loads of work still to be done). The Spirit has also made me shake with holy fear as he has convicted me of sin and brought me to repentance(not much fun at the time)

Any Christian worth their salt will tell you the same - it's much more than just a random "high" - it's part of a coherent strategy. There is an intelligence and love in the way his Spirit works in us and around us. There is always a purpose to it. There is also a spiritual awareness that one is "known" intimately by God. It's not like any "high" I have ever had. Chemical highs just don't explain it I'm afraid.

Originally posted by knightmeister
I spent many years considering questions such as these and I do believe that people can think they are having experiences of God which are actually not. I don't have a problem with people from other religions experiencing the Holy Spirit and it might lead them to become confirmed in their own faith . However , I think ultimately Christianity has the o ...[text shortened]... ike any "high" I have ever had. Chemical highs just don't explain it I'm afraid.

you're just rationalizing delusional states of the brain. people in other religions use the very same and very similar rationalizations.

Originally posted by knightmeister
You missed the point. I am simply saying that in order to decide whether something is there or not (or nay proposition for that matter) you need to have an idea in your head first.

That is a dangerous claim. It could be interpreted as saying that you cant tell if I am standing in front of you because you don't yet know my name.

The problem is that most people don't know who God really is and they go off looking for something or expecting something incorrectly. That's why CS Lewis said "The God I believe in is not the god you don't believe in."
And the reverse problem is that you see God in every day natural events and say "there is God - why cant anyone else see him?"

BTW- It's not my "personal secret" - millions do know Him and God is not elitist about who he reveals himself too.
He is apparently the opposite of elitist, preferring to reveal himself to people with lower education or lower wealth. He also has a very strong bias for revealing himself to people whose parents were Christian.

At the end of the day, you claimed there were events in my life which can only be attributed to the existence of God. Yet you cannot explain what they are, you are instead keeping it all mysterious and saying I will recognise them at some point in the future. I say that is nonsense. I could equally well say the same about you and the spaghetti monster.
Unless and until you can actually point out the events and explain how they provide evidence of the existence of God, you might as well be making it all up. I don't know why you even bothered mentioning it. Did you really think anyone would take you seriously? Why should they?

Originally posted by Rajk999
The actual words you use are irrelevant to the point.
Christ preached love and good works and following his commandments.
You preach talking and enjoying and experiencing the Triune God .. whatever that means. Thats not the doctrine of Christ.

The actual words you use are irrelevant to the point.
Christ preached love and good works and following his commandments.
You preach talking and enjoying and experiencing the Triune God .. whatever that means. Thats not the doctrine of Christ.

The point is that we need not be sitting to abide in Christ. We need not be meditating. We can be in traffic on the way to work, washing dishes, cutting grass on the lawn, in the middle of a conversation, doing taxes, and otherwise going about our normals daily lives.

Read "The Practice of the Presence of God" by Brother Lawrence.

You must assume passivity because you have little concept of "the mind set on the spirit is life and peace" (Rom. 8:6)

Now, about the complaint against experiencing and enjoying the Triune God:


So which One is it not biblical to experience and enjoy - the Father or the Son or the Holy Spirit ?

Which should I refraim from experiencing and enjoying ?
Supporting verses, please, of this prohibition.

Originally posted by jaywill
... Which should I refraim from experiencing and enjoying ?
Supporting verses, please, of this prohibition.

For you Jaywill who boast about having eternal life, who sit and eat and enjoy the Triune God and belittle those that try to follow in the footsteps of Christ, that do good works, and you Jaywill whose preaching implies that people that can sin all they like and they will still get salvation ..
for Knightmeister who claims to have a form of godliness but says he has to get the Holy Spirit and then he will do good works
for all the other once-saved-always-saved hypocrites out there who worship Christ with their mouth, and are lovers of self rather than lovers of God ..

here is a verse ..

This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come. For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good, Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God; Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away. For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts, Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.
(2 Timothy 3:1-7)

You Jaywill can never come to a knowledge of the truth. All the words of Christ and the Apostles, you have denied them.

Originally posted by Rajk999
For you Jaywill who boast about having eternal life, who sit and eat and enjoy the Triune God and belittle those that try to follow in the footsteps of Christ, that do good works, and you Jaywill whose preaching implies that people that can sin all they like and they will still get salvation ..
for Knightmeister who claims to have a form of godliness but sa ...[text shortened]... ome to a knowledge of the truth. All the words of Christ and the Apostles, you have denied them.

For you Jaywill who boast about having eternal life, who sit and eat and enjoy the Triune God and belittle those that try to follow in the footsteps of Christ,

Each and every time you make an accusation against me you are NOT able to SUBSTANTIATE it with QUOTATIONS.

HERE we go again ! Quote me where I BELITTLED "those who try to follow in the footsteps of Christ".

Let me see your PROOF that I did that.

As for boasting. My boast certainly is not in myself. It is in the Lord.

"That as it is written, "He who boasts, let him boast in the Lord" " ( 1 Cor. 1:31)

Isn't that a command of the Lord too ?

Originally posted by jaywill

For you Jaywill who boast about having eternal life, who sit and eat and enjoy the Triune God and belittle those that try to follow in the footsteps of Christ,

Each and every time you make an accusation against me you are NOT able to SUBSTANTIATE it with QUOTATIONS.

HERE we go again ! Quote me where I [b]BELITTLED "those who ...[text shortened]... him boast in the Lord" " ( 1 Cor. 1:31) [/b]

Isn't that a command of the Lord too ?[/b]

I have neither the time nor desire to dig into the past posts to find any thing. Suffice it to say that you have said or implied that those who do good works are offensive to God.

Originally posted by Rajk999
I have neither the time nor desire to dig into the past posts to find any thing. Suffice it to say that you have said or implied that those who do good works are offensive to God.

You have neither time nor desire for integrity then ?

Next time then say what you think "suffices" and don't exaggerate. Just that without speaking falsehood.

Originally posted by twhitehead
That is a dangerous claim. It could be interpreted as saying that you cant tell if I am standing in front of you because you don't yet know my name.

[b]The problem is that most people don't know who God really is and they go off looking for something or expecting something incorrectly. That's why CS Lewis said "The God I believe in is not the god you d ...[text shortened]... entioning it. Did you really think anyone would take you seriously? Why should they?

And the reverse problem is that you see God in every day natural events and say "there is God - why cant anyone else see him?" - I DID NOT SAY THIS AND I UNDERSTAND WHY PEOPLE CAN'T SEE HIM BECAUSE THE WORLD IS IN DARKNESS.

He is apparently the opposite of elitist.... ISN'T THIS A GOOD THING , WHO WANTS AN ELITIST GOD? DO YOU?

At the end of the day, you claimed there were events in my life which can only be attributed to the existence of God. --I DID NOT SAY THIS EITHER

That is a dangerous claim. It could be interpreted as saying that you cant tell if I am standing in front of you because you don't yet know my name. - WELL , THIS IS ACTUALLY TRUE DON'T YOU THINK. IF WE ACTUALLY MET IN REAL LIFE I MIGHT NEED TO KNOW YOUR NAME AND WHAT YOU LOOKED LIKE TO RECOGNIZE YOU. IF I HAD NO IDEA WHAT TO EXPECT HOW WOULD I KNOW IT WAS YOU?

Did you really think anyone would take you seriously? Why should they? - IF THE HOLY SPIRIT STARTS TO MOVE IN YOUR LIFE THEN YOU WILL TAKE THE WHOLE THING VERY SERIOUSLY. HE DOES NOT BECAUSE YOU DON'T ASK HIM TO. ASK HIM WITH ALL YOUR HEART AND I GUARANTEE IT WILL BECOME PRETTY DARN SERIOUS.

BTW- IT'S NOT ME THAT NEEDS TO BE TAKEN SERIOUSLY

Originally posted by VoidSpirit
you're just rationalizing delusional states of the brain. people in other religions use the very same and very similar rationalizations.

Have you ever considered what you have just said might actually be a rationalization itself?

If one wanted to rationalize away the Holy Spirit what better way to do then to claim that the Holy Spirit is a rationalization of delusional brain states? That way you don't have to think about what God might want to say to you about your life.

It's an argument that works both ways. What amazes me it that many doubters and skeptics never seem to get round to doubting their own doubts and being skeptical about their own skepticism.