"I am a snake, not an apple. What does that mean? Well, our civilization - the Judeo-Christian - in its founding myth portrayed the deliverer of knowledge as the source of evil - the devil - and the loss of innocence as a catastrophe. This probably had less to do with religion than with the standard desire of those in authority to control those who are not." ~ John Ralston Saul 'The Unconscious Civilization'.
I live in a society ~ like many others around the world, maybe even all societies, to a degree ~ where the controlling and withholding of knowledge creates power for some, and the gaining of 'proscribed' knowledge can create danger for others.
While followers of the Abrahamic religions may have incorporated the metaphor into their traditions and given it a supernatural edge, surely the knowledge-authority thing is in fact merely an inevitable upshot of the human condition and of the relationships and interactions between people?
Might not the snake & apple metaphor have been the product of minds seeking to consolidate earthly power and might not the religious trappings have merely been a means of ensuring that the exercise of that power was perceived with deadly seriousness and - most importantly - conformity and obedience?
08 Aug 15
Originally posted by FMFFor the children, the metaphor of the Serpent and the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil is often substituted with a common snake and apple. This makes it seem even more like just another myth to adults who have outgrown children stories.
"I am a snake, not an apple. What does that mean? Well, our civilization - the Judeo-Christian - in its founding myth portrayed the deliverer of knowledge as the source of evil - the devil - and the loss of innocence as a catastrophe. This probably had less to do with religion than with the standard desire of those in authority to control those who are not." ~ J ...[text shortened]... t power was perceived with deadly seriousness and - most importantly - conformity and obedience?
You are apparently one with that mindset and are unable to see the seriousness of the sin problem and therefore it is understandable that you view the gospel solution as foolishness. Some do not see that there is a problem with sin in their lives, so they see no need for any solution.
08 Aug 15
Originally posted by FMFHow do you know it was an apple?
"I am a snake, not an apple. What does that mean? Well, our civilization - the Judeo-Christian - in its founding myth portrayed the deliverer of knowledge as the source of evil - the devil - and the loss of innocence as a catastrophe. This probably had less to do with religion than with the standard desire of those in authority to control those who are not." ~ J ...[text shortened]... t power was perceived with deadly seriousness and - most importantly - conformity and obedience?
08 Aug 15
Originally posted by RJHindsOne has to believe in your God figure if one is to believe what you claim about "sin" and about the "sin problem".
You are apparently one with that mindset and are unable to see the seriousness of the sin problem and therefore it is understandable that you view the gospel solution as foolishness. Some do not see that there is a problem with sin in their lives, so they see no need for any solution.
I certainly do believe that morally unsound behaviour is a problem in everybody's lives. I'm even willing to say that, if your belief in supernatural things helps you to act in a morally sound way (and also if it gives you some sort of consolation in the face of the inevitability of death), then I welcome that outcome and say good for you.
I still think the metaphor is about the nature of power in the human condition and that there is no convincing reason to embellish it with a supernatural narrative
Originally posted by lemon limeIt's folklore. And it's a metaphor.
Well... I suppose I [b]could ask how John Ralston Saul knew it was an apple, but the answer would be the same as how you knew it was an apple.[/b]
The thread is intended to be about the link between knowledge and power being part and parcel of the human condition whether it's packaged as theology or not.
08 Aug 15
Originally posted by FMFWut?
"I am a snake, not an apple. What does that mean? Well, our civilization - the Judeo-Christian - in its founding myth portrayed the deliverer of knowledge as the source of evil - the devil - and the loss of innocence as a catastrophe. This probably had less to do with religion than with the standard desire of those in authority to control those who are not." ~ J ...[text shortened]... t power was perceived with deadly seriousness and - most importantly - conformity and obedience?
08 Aug 15
Originally posted by FMFIf that was the intention, then perhaps you should have stayed away from theology entirely.
It's folklore. And it's a metaphor.
The thread is intended to be about the link between knowledge and power being part and parcel of the human condition whether it's packaged as theology or not.
08 Aug 15
Originally posted by SuzianneBut this element of the human condition, which is evident everywhere, has been enshrined in some religious literature, so it serves no purpose to stay away from it on a discussion forum intended for discussing such things.
If that was the intention, then perhaps you should have stayed away from theology entirely.
08 Aug 15
Originally posted by FMFBut where is the power without the embellishment?
One has to believe in your God figure if one is to believe what you claim about "sin" and about the "sin problem".
I certainly do believe that morally unsound behaviour is a problem in everybody's lives. I'm even willing to say that, if your belief in supernatural things helps you to act in a morally sound way (and also if it gives you some sort of consolati ...[text shortened]... n condition and that there is no convincing reason to embellish it with a supernatural narrative
08 Aug 15
Originally posted by FMFOK I see; and theological metaphors are one expression of this human condition. It would be interesting to here sonhouse POV on is as he seems to me to believe that the human condition is derived from the theological metaphor and not, as you are proposing, the metaphor from the condition.
The thread is intended to be about the link between knowledge and power being part and parcel of the human condition whether it's packaged as theology or not.
08 Aug 15
Originally posted by divegeesterWithout the supernatural/theological embellishment?
But where is the power without the embellishment?
In military man power, weaponry, control of resources, cultural factors like royalty, ideology, oral history, and other stuff. But all these things can - and have - worked hand in hand with the concept of 'divine rights' conjured up by packaging earthly power arrangements with the trappings of religion since (seemingly) the year dot
08 Aug 15
Originally posted by FMFMankind constantly leans towards the 'simplest' answers, but man and God are not the simplest beings.
Without the supernatural/theological embellishment?
In military man power, weaponry, control of resources, cultural factors like royalty, ideology, oral history, and other stuff. But all these things can - and have - worked hand in hand with the concept of 'divine rights' conjured up by packaging earthly power arrangements with the trappings of religion since (seemingly) the year dot