Originally posted by galveston75The "general population" of Muslims where I live - most of them, I'd say - are very devout indeed in their worship of God.
Another sign of the end of the system as we know it as simple as the attitudes of the general population towards God.
Originally posted by galveston75Don't forget that that the "times of the gentiles" must be completed before the end of days comes. HalleluYah !!! Praise the Lord!
Another sign of the end of the system as we know it as simple as the attitudes of the general population towards God.
It's not that all would be doing evil things but just their attitude.
Jesus then draws comparisons with ancient events to show what the attitudes of people will be during his future presence. He explains: “Moreover, just as it occurre ...[text shortened]... ill be destroyed when Christ is revealed during the great tribulation on this system of things.
http://scholarscorner.com/eschaton/gentiles
But exclude the outer court; do not measure it, because it has been given to the Gentiles. They will trample on the holy city for 42 months.
(Revelation 11:2 NIV)
This verse is referring to the time of the testimony of the Two Witnesses which lasts during the Great Tribulation. So we see clearly that the Times of the Gentiles, or the nations in Hebrew, trampling Jerusalem as defined by Luke is not over until the 42 months of the Great Tribulation are finished.
http://www.escapeallthesethings.com/times-of-the-gentiles-fulfilled.htm
Originally posted by FMF
Who is saying he should? What kind of daft rhetorical device is this?
Who is saying he should? What kind of daft rhetorical device is this?
lol.
What kind of daft rhetorical device are you using? I answered you a couple times on my attitude non- Christians.
What the probing repeats of the basic question?
Trying to prove some rhetorical point ?
Originally posted by FMF
Well if by this you mean that your 'end is nigh' prediction doesn't affect non-Christians, that it will leave all non-Christians in peace to get on with their lives, and only effects you and other fanatical Christians like you, then that's OK by me.
Well if by this you mean that your 'end is nigh' prediction doesn't affect non-Christians, that it will leave all non-Christians in peace to get on with their lives, and only effects you and other fanatical Christians like you, then that's OK by me.
You didn't explain the narcicism.
I doubt if you'll explain the alledged fanatacism I'm suppose to have.
I don't think a Christian who can respond to criticisms about his belief is necessarily fanatical. And that is pretty much what I have done for these six years. And this is the place for such discussion, isn't it ? Spirituality Forum ?
I've explained what the Bible teaches. And some criticisms of my faith I have responded to. That's apologetics and not fanatacism.
Originally posted by FMF
So you don't think 'the end times' are nigh? You're not willing to say?
So you don't think 'the end times' are nigh? You're not willing to say?
I hope that Christ has His second coming in my lifetime.
But I don't know that He will.
Sure, I think we are living in the end times. But that does not mean I know the year of the second coming of Christ.
It might be after I depart for all I know.
The "end times" could be for any one of us on the highway driving tonight.
The "end times" came for those in the World Trade Center one sunny afternoon when they were expecting nothing more than a typical dull day at the office.
The "end times" is not the END for me. It is a transfer of the age.
And that is a wonderful age.
On the topic of things falling apart, it is interesting that the whole mediterranean region was shocked in the year 410 when Alaric, the Gothic leader, sacked and pillaged the city of Rome. In 356, Constantin had prohibited pagan sacrifices and closed all the temples. In 382, Gratian ordered the final removal of the altar that stood before the statue of Victory in the Senate House. The pagans argued that the gods had withdrawn their protection and the new Christian god was powerless to save the city from barbarian destruction. It was to answer this serious claim that Augustine of Hippo produced his "The City of God." Referring to the decline and ruin of the Egyptian, Assyrian, Greek as well as Roman empires, he pronounced that the ruin of Rome was just an example of the inevitable death of the civitas terra which would be superseded by the civitas Dei. In other words, he argued that things were not getting worse, they had always been that bad and always would be. This is a line of argument that can be used whatever way you want to play it.
The key trick of course was taken from the Old Testament and the discovery of the early Jews that history (written long after the event) can be represented as an unfolding of God's plans and history can be edited to ensure that the message is consistent. In the past, this was always directed to the fortunes of the Jewish nation and as such, mainly of interest to the Jews of Israel. Not only did Jesus's followers regard him as a worldly messiah come to lead them in repelling the Romans, but they held to this notion after his death (by arguing that he had arisen), always expecting that the end was imminent. Only after the failed rebellion of 66-70 AD, culminating in the destruction of their temple, did the early Christians move away from the Jerusalem leadership, which disappeared in the conflict, and adopted Paul's version of the story. Mark's gospel, the first to be written, was produced in Rome at this time to distance the new religion from the Jewish insurrection and emphasise that it was the Jews rather than the Roman Pilate who had wanted Jesus executed.
A dangerous phrase included in Mark was the famous "Giive to Caesar what belongs to Caeser and to God what belongs to God. The Jewish insurrection was particularly driven by the intention to divert the taxes paid to their temple into taxes paid to the pagan, divine emperor and for some years the refusal to pay taxes was a key issue for the Jewish zealots. Jesus appears to have answered this matter in a way that could more easily be understood as supporting the Zealots and we know that one of his disciples was Simon the Zealot. Plenty of evidence marks out Jesus as at least sympathetic with the zealot position and hence viewing his messianic mission on the traditional Jewish terms, as did his apostles for some decades after him.
The task for the followers of Paul was to translate this message into different terms, away from the earthly ambitions of the Jewish nationalists and away too from the expectation, evidently no longer credible, that the end times were imminent. Obviously, it took some time before they were successful in distancing themselves from the political damage caused by the Jewish rebellion and later gospels were more emphatic in stateing their case.
The notion of the end times have retained an attraction whenever things are rough, be it the Vikings, the Black Death or whatever dismal episode of history made life a misery. Today, it appeals to the fundamentalists who are unable to cope with the modern world and its apparent throwing over of their belief systems. But as Augustine pointed out long ago in defence of the Christians, things have always been bad.
Originally posted by finneganWe Christisns have a better hope in the coming of our Lord and savior. Come Lord! Maranatha! HalleluYah !!! Praise the Lord!
On the topic of things falling apart, it is interesting that the whole mediterranean region was shocked in the year 410 when Alaric, the Gothic leader, sacked and pillaged the city of Rome. In 356, Constantin had prohibited pagan sacrifices and closed all the temples. In 382, Gratian ordered the final removal of the altar that stood before the statue of Vic ...[text shortened]... Augustine pointed out long ago in defence of the Christians, things have always been bad.
Originally posted by galveston75the people listening to jesus thought they were living in the end times. this is a fact anyone can find out for themselves with a reading of the new testament. your disagreement is irrelevant.
Not hardly.
The immediate end of times or system Jesus was refering to was with the destruction of Jerusalem which did come true did it not?
since that "prediction" was written after the destruction of jerusalem, it is hardly surprising.
But the much larger fulfillment was to be in the future which would involve the whole world.
yes, within one generation in the future, while some of those listening to jesus would be alive to see it. that would explain why they thought they were living in the end times.
So again it is you that not only does not understand but you have your personal agenda of maybe hate that is keeping you from understanding.
nope, i understand it. everyone who was listening to jesus understood it. it seems still that the only one who hasn't understood it is you.
God only allows those who are receptive to him, to see.... That's why ya don't get it my friend.
well, he hasn't helped you any.
Originally posted by jaywillI am not saying you are fanatical because you "can respond to criticisms". You are fanatical because you blithely hope that harm will come to so many fellow human beings who happen to have different beliefs from you. You are fanatical because you hope this will happen before you yourself die.
I don't think a Christian who can respond to criticisms about his belief is necessarily fanatical.
Originally posted by FMFWe Christians do not hope harm will come to any of you unbelievers. That is why we are warning you, so you can repeant of your sins and believe on the only one that can save you from eternal torment.
I am not saying you are fanatical because you "can respond to criticisms". You are fanatical because you blithely hope that harm will come to so many fellow human beings who happen to have different beliefs from you. You are fanatical because you hope this will happen before you yourself die.
HalleluYah !!! Praise the Lord!
Originally posted by RJHindsNon-Christians do not subscribe to your partisan and malignant notions of "sins" and "eternal torment". You cannot BOTH hope that your "Jesus" will come and do the things you say he will do AND say you do not hope harm will come to people with different beliefs to you.
We Christians do not hope harm will come to any of you unbelievers. That is why we are warning you, so you can repeant of your sins and believe on the only one that can save you from eternal torment.
Originally posted by jaywillI take it you have not debated with FMF that much.Who is saying he should? What kind of daft rhetorical device is this?
lol.
What kind of daft rhetorical device are you using? I answered you a couple times on my attitude non- Christians.
What the probing repeats of the basic question?
Trying to prove some rhetorical point ?
Originally posted by FMFYou said it, so therefore it must be?
Non-Christians do not subscribe to your partisan and malignant notions of "sins" and "eternal torment". You cannot BOTH hope that your "Jesus" will come and do the things you say he will do AND say you do not hope harm will come to people with different beliefs to you.
It's interesting how you can reject the idea that God has spoken and caused His words to be recorded for our benefit and understanding of the truth of this life, and yet continually expect that what you say trumps God's words.
If you think it is partisan and malignant to warn people that the rejection of God's provision for sin will result in eternal separation from life, then wake up. The harm being caused by "sinners" in this life against the innocent and others is a horror beyond description.
You are obviously deeply entrenched in your comfort zone. The world is a funeral march in case you haven't noticed. Death reigns, because of sin. Murder, rape and inconceivable abuse and misery is the tale that will be told at every level of human existence.
All sin is ultimately against God, and you have the audacity to think that your words can dispel God's warning against those who practice sin will go unpunished.
Very arrogant!
Originally posted by josephwWhich "God's words"? I "reject the idea that God has spoken" to you. It seems you don't understand what I am saying.
It's interesting how you can reject the idea that God has spoken and caused His words to be recorded for our benefit and understanding of the truth of this life, and yet continually expect that what you say trumps God's words.