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Originally posted by RJHindsLet us look at those 2 quotes side by side, and then tell me we are discussing the same God:A jealous and avenging God is the LORD; The LORD is avenging and wrathful. The LORD takes vengeance on His adversaries, And He reserves wrath for His enemies. The LORD is slow to anger and great in power, And the LORD will by no means leave the guilty unpunished...
(Nahum 1:2-3 NASB)
'The Lord our God is merciful and forgiving, even though we have rebelled against him.'
'A jealous and avenging God is the LORD; The LORD is avenging and wrathful. The LORD takes vengeance on His adversaries, And He reserves wrath for His enemies. The LORD is slow to anger and great in power, And the LORD will by no means leave the guilty unpunished...'
19 Jul 15
Originally posted by Rajk999So the objection is not the torment but the longevity of the torment?
Without a doubt there are people that deserve to be tormented for a pretty long period for all the pain they inflicted on others. But certainly being tormented for all eternity would be an unjust sentence even for those.
What about the belief that many Christians have in which all those who did not accept Christ will similarly be tormented for ever?
19 Jul 15
Originally posted by Ghost of a DukeHeld accountable?
Well, the vast majority are already dead, but those still alive should most certainly be held accountable and face the full force of the law. (Though better of course if this had occurred many decades ago).
As i have no belief in an afterlife, nothing can be done to those already dead, other than to remember them with disdain.
How? What should be done?
Originally posted by Great King RatLock them away for eternity? Ok.
Will these people still be the same kind of people in this so-called "next life"? Will they still behead children in heaven, or at least attempt to do so? If so, they need to be locked away for the safety of everyone else. If not, then apparently going into this next life changes people. And in that case I fail to see the point in "doing something to ...[text shortened]... pparently closer to god than I am. Why is that, Whodey? Does being insane get you closer to god?
Of course, you ask an important question. Will the madness end?
This brings us to Adam. We were told that his sin brought sin into the world, that later transformed itself into the murderous people that God sought to destroy with the Great Flood and those we see today that I have pointed out.
So is it enough to just deal with the justice of certain sins or should we instead focus on sin itself that eventually breeds this behavior?
19 Jul 15
Originally posted by whodeyWhat the hell are you saying, insane person?
Lock them away for eternity? Ok.
Of course, you ask an important question. Will the madness end?
This brings us to Adam. We were told that his sin brought sin into the world, that later transformed itself into the murderous people that God sought to destroy with the Great Flood and those we see today that I have pointed out.
So is it enough to jus ...[text shortened]... e of certain sins or should we instead focus on sin itself that eventually breeds this behavior?
Originally posted by divegeesterI am not convinced that 'flexible' is the right word. Here merely says that there are more things to consider than you specified in your question.
It seems RJHinds thinks that morality is flexible when it comes to burning people alive for what they believe.
If I asked you 'Did all Nazi's deserve life imprisonment', you may well answer 'well that depends on what they did'. Is your morality flexible if you say that?
But on to the real issue of the thread. What does 'deserve' mean anyway? Why do we punish people and why do we think some people 'deserve' punishment? I think the only way to understand it is from an evolutionary perspective and I think you will find it very hard to justify any theological explanation.
19 Jul 15
Originally posted by divegeesterIt would be interesting to hear your own views with regards to punishment. Do you think anyone is ever 'deserving' of punishment purely for the sake of punishment rather than as a correctional measure? Do you think that a sinner needs to in some way 'pay' for his sins?
What do the rest of the eternal suffering believers think?
I found it interesting in a recent thread by Kelly that he claimed that we would all be much worse sinners if it wasn't for God holding us back. I wonder how this plays into the whole equation. If God holds you back are you no-longer deserving of the punishment you would have received had he not held you back and let you do bad things?
19 Jul 15
Originally posted by twhiteheadI don't believe in punishment for the sake of punishment. To your other post to me. I understand your point about Nazis but it's is not a parallel to my OP which is specific to belief or non belief. Simply being a Nazi should not deserve punishment x if crime x was not committed. My OP is specific.
It would be interesting to hear your own views with regards to punishment. Do you think anyone is ever 'deserving' of punishment purely for the sake of punishment rather than as a correctional measure? Do you think that a sinner needs to in some way 'pay' for his sins?
19 Jul 15
Originally posted by twhiteheadAs with many of Kelly's statements, they are based on teaching he has received from his religious authoritative figure, and are not supported in scripture.
I found it interesting in a recent thread by Kelly that he claimed that we would all be much worse sinners if it wasn't for God holding us back. I wonder how this plays into the whole equation. If God holds you back are you no-longer deserving of the punishment you would have received had he not held you back and let you do bad things?
Originally posted by whodeyClearly. There is such a thing as punishment on the day of judgment, in the form of being cast into the lake of fire. Like you say some people deserve it.
So the objection is not the torment but the longevity of the torment?
Is there not a difference between burning to death which entails some torment, and eternal torment where God keeps you alive and with the ability to feel pain for all eternity?
19 Jul 15
Originally posted by divegeesterNot necessarily. I don't know what Hinds meant in his answer, but suppose he meant "it depends on what you believe or don't believe". That would be a perfectly reasonable response without having flexible morality.
My OP is specific.
He may think that believing in Islam and not believing in the Biblical god are both deserving of punishment and that believing in the Biblical god is not. Nothing flexible there.
19 Jul 15
Originally posted by divegeesterIt is nevertheless an interesting question that it raises which applies even if you disagree with Kelly. Suppose committing murder is deserving of severe punishment. Suppose God, or even us people were to prevent people from committing murder. Are they no-longer deserving of sever punishment? ie is the punishment for the act or for the evilness that cause to to commit the act?
As with many of Kelly's statements, they are based on teaching he has received from his religious authoritative figure, and are not supported in scripture.
Also, if acts get you into hell, why doesn't god just kill us all as babies? After all, until the last century or so, most people did die as babies. And for those that believe souls exist prior to birth, most foetus' still die prior to birth. Are they being done a favour?